Ride my bicycle

rec.bicycles.tech - 25 new messages in 5 topics - digest

2010-12-04T10:20:00.001-08:00

rec.bicycles.tech
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech?hl=en

rec.bicycles.tech@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009 - 13 messages, 9 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/098895388786dab6?hl=en
* Dropout adjuster screws - 7 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/3af6847b8c4c08e5?hl=en
* 29"er animosity? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/38001a391592738a?hl=en
* Cannondale road framesets CAAD - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/2611ed6a070dab78?hl=en
* Cold feet: was: mini pumps - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/aeba5c1beb093521?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bicyclist Fatalities in AZ 2009
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/098895388786dab6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 13 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 11:39 pm
From: RobertH

On Dec 3, 10:42 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Try looking up that Moritz article. It dealt with injuries of LAB
> members who were dedicated commuters. You know, riding in traffic to
> get to work. Median 11 years or 32,000 miles between injuries that
> cost even $50. No fatalities.

No fatalities!! You mean -- no deceased cyclists filled out Moritz's
survey? Astonishing.

== 2 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 7:30 am
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 3, 10:06 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 6:50 am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>
> $southslope.net"> wrote:
> > On 12/3/2010 12:40 AM, Bill Sornson wrote:
>
> > > ?"DirtRoadie" <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > >news:f0fb93cf-4650-4bea-a5b0-2b70646bd460@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> > >> On Dec 2, 4:37 pm, T m Sherm n _ <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> > >> $southslope.net"> wrote:
> > >>> On 12/2/2010 11:32 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:> On Dec 2, 9:15 am, Frank
> > >>> Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> Falsified quote below.
>
> > >>> >> {I don't waste much time thinking.}
> > >>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>
> > >>> > Yes, Frank, we know.
> > >>> > DR
>
> > >>> ... the best argument yet on considering reforming
> > >>> the Internet to make anonymous posting much more difficult.
>
> > >> Reforming the INTERNET?
> > >> Um, OK, Just you and Frank get to use it, right?
> > >> And anyone with disagrees with you two is barred?
> > >> So have you had these extreme right wing leanings all your life?
>
> > > Ummm... Who wants to regulate and control every aspect of people's
> > > lives, behaviors and even speech? Think light bulbs, salt, trans fats,
> > > vehicles, street signs (!), internet ("neutrality"), media ("fairness"),
> > > etc. etc. etc. Hint: it ain't the right wing.
>
> > > Bill "but keep on putting Frank in his place; THAT you got right" S.
>
> > No comment on libel (falsifying quotations) and threatening to stalk in
> > real life (contacting co-workers about a Usenet discussion) by anonymous
> > posters?
>
> > The silence by almost everyone is deafening - I guess the silent ones
> > approve of such behavior?
>
> That seems likely. I doubt that anyone else is as poorly informed as
> you are.
> Tom, your ignorance is without bounds.
> If you would actually like to try to make a point I will be glad to
> address it.
> You are a true Krygowskian disciple with the same sort of "Reverse
> Polish Logic."
> Thus far you have thrown in a few inflammatory words without the
> remotest understanding of what they mean.
> Start with "libel."
> Please articulate your case. You have used the word but have not
> actually said anything of substance so far.
> And then please address the significance of Krygowski lying and
> misquoting others, as he regularly does. You clearly have a double
> standard here.
>
> DR

> > [---------- Large Silent Gap ----------]

Thanks, Tom. Speaking of deafening silence, yours confirms that you
can justify neither your own position nor Krygowski's.

== 3 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 7:36 am
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per Tim McNamara:
>
>We've punished frugality and encouraged profligate spending for decades
>in the US. Without credit cards, most Americans would discover just how
>badly off they are economically. Religion is not the opiate of the
>masses- Visa and Mastercard are.

For years, I've been waiting for somebody halfway credible to
comment on national TV that:

1) If somebody calls you on the phone to sell something, don't
"check them out thoroughly"... just tell them to get bent
and hang the f*@#k up.

Once you determine that they are a telephone solicitor, you
owe them *nothing* in the way of responses or even civility:
end the conversation... immediately.

2) You're paying interest on your credit card account to cover
the purchase of a TV?

What are you? A child? If you are paying credit card
interest, the odds are 99:1 that something is seriously wrong
with your judgment/economic education.

But nobody's stepped up to the plate on either one. Given the
breadth and extremity of political opinions expressed in the
media, I find that surprising.

--
PeteCresswell

== 4 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 7:53 am
From: "MikeWhy"

DirtRoadie wrote:
> On Dec 3, 10:06 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 3, 6:50 am, T�m Sherm�n� �_� <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>>
>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>> On 12/3/2010 12:40 AM, Bill Sornson wrote:
>>
>>>> ?"DirtRoadie" <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:f0fb93cf-4650-4bea-a5b0-2b70646bd460@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> On Dec 2, 4:37 pm, T m Sherm n _ <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>>>>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/2/2010 11:32 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:> On Dec 2, 9:15 am,
>>>>>> Frank Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Falsified quote below.
>>
>>>>>>>> {I don't waste much time thinking.}
>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>>>>>> Yes, Frank, we know.
>>>>>>> DR
>>
>>>>>> ... the best argument yet on considering reforming
>>>>>> the Internet to make anonymous posting much more difficult.
>>
>>>>> Reforming the INTERNET?
>>>>> Um, OK, Just you and Frank get to use it, right?
>>>>> And anyone with disagrees with you two is barred?
>>>>> So have you had these extreme right wing leanings all your life?
>>
>>>> Ummm... Who wants to regulate and control every aspect of people's
>>>> lives, behaviors and even speech? Think light bulbs, salt, trans
>>>> fats, vehicles, street signs (!), internet ("neutrality"), media
>>>> ("fairness"), etc. etc. etc. Hint: it ain't the right wing.
>>
>>>> Bill "but keep on putting Frank in his place; THAT you got right"
>>>> S.
>>
>>> No comment on libel (falsifying quotations) and threatening to
>>> stalk in real life (contacting co-workers about a Usenet
>>> discussion) by anonymous posters?
>>
>>> The silence by almost everyone is deafening - I guess the silent
>>> ones approve of such behavior?
>>
>> That seems likely. I doubt that anyone else is as poorly informed as
>> you are.
>> Tom, your ignorance is without bounds.
>> If you would actually like to try to make a point I will be glad to
>> address it.
>> You are a true Krygowskian disciple with the same sort of "Reverse
>> Polish Logic."
>> Thus far you have thrown in a few inflammatory words without the
>> remotest understanding of what they mean.
>> Start with "libel."
>> Please articulate your case. You have used the word but have not
>> actually said anything of substance so far.
>> And then please address the significance of Krygowski lying and
>> misquoting others, as he regularly does. You clearly have a double
>> standard here.
>>
>> DR
>
>> > [---------- Large Silent Gap ----------]
>
> Thanks, Tom. Speaking of deafening silence, yours confirms that you
> can justify neither your own position nor Krygowski's.
>
> DR

[Crickets]

== 5 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 8:41 am
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 10:50 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article<id87ug$pvl$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Peter Cole<peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:

>> Let's just say that some activities have greater ethical burdens than
>> others. That health care is at the extreme in this regard seems
>> hardly controversial.
>
> How?
>
> Seriously. As a provider I have ethical guidelines with which I have to
> comply; I have an entire section of law (the Psychology Practice Act)
> with which I have to comply; I have a licensing board which provides
> regulatory oversight intended to protect consumers from the unethical
> and idiotic; I am reviewed by private agencies (insurance companies) and
> government agencies (Department of Health, the board, etc.). Most if
> not all other licensees providing health care have the same situation.
>
> If I am unethical, I can harm someone's life. Yup. So can a financial
> advisor, the guy bolting the wheels back on your car at Discount Tire,
> the chef making your dinner, etc. The vast majority of people try to
> not harm others, fortunately.

Yes, but the other professions you mention, and my own (writing
software) have none of those mechanisms. There is a reason for that.

>> From your earlier (brief) description of what I presume to be a
>> typical
>> interaction, I can only describe it as a very badly implemented
>> process. That is not a necessary state of affairs, and really has
>> nothing to do with computerization.
>
> Not computerization per se, but where the rubber hits the road is the
> implementation.

Yes, that was my main point.

>> That's generally the problem: "tradition". To computerize effectively
>> always means transforming the process to capitalize on the strengths
>> of technology. Where there's lots of tradition, either informal
>> (social, role identification, etc.) or formal (legal, etc.) change is
>> difficult, so technology is compromised, sometimes to the point of
>> offering no advantage at all. Economic and performance pressure will
>> coerce people into changing eventually, the winners are the early
>> adopters.
>
> "Tradition" in this case is a set of methods developed over decades of
> trial and error to find efficient, concise ways of conveying
> information. There is a lot of amassed wisdom in those practices which
> EMRs, as they exist, simply set aside because they are not easily
> accommodated by paragraphic text-based documentation systems.

Computers will require change, it is a transformation that is occurring
in most industries, some sooner than others. Medical systems are just
particularly backward.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_medical_record#Usage

"Even though EMR systems with computerized provider order entry (CPOE)
have existed for more than 30 years, fewer than 10 percent of hospitals
as of 2006 have a fully integrated system.[13]

In the United States, 38.4% of office-based physicians reported using
fully or partially electronic medical record systems (EMR) in 2008[14].
However, the same study found that only 20.4% of all physicians reported
using a system described as minimally functional and including the
following features: orders for prescriptions, orders for tests, viewing
laboratory or imaging results, and clinical notes."

"In UK veterinary practice, the replacement of paper recording systems
with electronic methods of storing animal patient information escalated
from the 1980s and the majority of clinics now use electronic medical
records. In a sample of 129 veterinary practices, 89% used a Practice
Management System (PMS) for data recording "

Better to be a dog in the UK it seems.

>
>>>>> What computerization in health care mainly does is make
>>>>> regulatory oversight easier. The people pushing EMRs are usually
>>>>> doing so from a position of self-promotion (e.g., they sell these
>>>>> systems).
>>>>
>>>> That would make medical systems somewhat unique, something I have
>>>> difficulty accepting.
>>>
>>> Huh? There is nothing new in self-serving lobbying for regulation.
>>
>> Sorry, your statement wasn't clear.
>
> I don't know how to make it any clearer. The people lobbying for
> regulatory requirement of EMRs were mainly people who profit from
> selling EMRs.

Yes, that's to be expected in a political system like that in the US,
but it doesn't address the question of whether EMR systems are a benefit
or not.

>> We spend more, we get less, including an estimated 45K annual excess
>> deaths a year. The "inequity" is linked to the economics. The
>> economics is linked to the profit motive.
>
> That's a tempting chain of reasoning but, I think, faulty or at least
> incomplete. Part of the excessive cost of health care in the US is
> cultural- Americans are quite willing to spend a lot of money to prolong
> life even when that effort is going to be minimally successful.

Uh, oh. Death panels.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/health/03iht-03nice.18351335.html

Even in the area of expensive, life prolonging treatments, while
rationing is inevitable, big pharma is pulling the strings. Much of the
same can be said for "technology creep" across the board. Drug and
equipment companies have huge advertising budgets and many gimmicks to
draw in physicians. It may indeed be "cultural" -- if you consider Wall
Street "culture.

>>>> The "conflict of interest" issue I raised was only in the context
>>>> of your involvement in the health care system.
>>>
>>> You have yet to explain what my conflict of interest is.
>>>
>>>> I could similarly rant on about IT compensation issues, but I
>>>> would have a similar conflict.
>>>
>>> Or what your conflict of interest is.

It might be opposition to H1B visa quotas which (uniquely) allow large
numbers of foreign nationals to work in the US in the IT industry
(heavily lobbied for by US software firms).

No one would expect me to have a neutral outlook on that.

>> I'm only saying (obviously, I thought) that it's hard to be objective
>> about issues that affect your personal income. That's perhaps a
>> larger problem in a field with the social consequences of health
>> care. There are many people interested in preserving the (bad) status
>> quo, and even many others who would make it worse.
>
> That can be applied to every business, of course. Why single out health
> care?

Because it involves literal "life and death" issues.

>> Profit to shareholders. Industrial medicine. Corporate controlled
>> HMO's, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals and clinics. You know, all
>> the stuff that makes America great.
>
> Short of redesigning capitalism, whatcha got in mind? A single payer
> health care system isn't going to happen. There's almost no federal
> oversight of health insurance, that being the province of the states, so
> the federal government cannot force health insurance companies to
> organize as nonprofits as Minnesota has done (to our general advantage).

Capitalism does need to be "redesigned". It has been many times, in the
US and elsewhere. We are living now in unpleasant economic times created
by the rollback of some of those "redesigns".

>> Yes, well it's broken and can't seem to get fixed, despite the will
>> of the majority, which can only mean our democracy is broken.
>
> The will of the people has been neatly divided by brilliant political
> strategems using artful wedge issues, emotional appeals, bullying,
> gerrymandering, sophisticated push polling, outright lying, etc. etc.

It can more simply be reduced to the influence of money on the political
process. This influence has only increased in recent times. Big money
buys intellectual cover for their self-serving ideologies (think tanks,
etc.), then they buy propaganda outlets (media empires, etc.), lastly
they buy the electoral process.

> Which is why individual health care providers doing what's right for
> their patients as much as they can is still the heart of the profession.

Good intentions are laudable, but the system is broken.

== 6 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 8:50 am
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 10:53 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:

> We've punished frugality and encouraged profligate spending for decades
> in the US. Without credit cards, most Americans would discover just how
> badly off they are economically. Religion is not the opiate of the
> masses- Visa and Mastercard are.

I don't know who "we" are.

The real decline in income and the increasing disparity of income for
most Americans in the last few decades have been papered over with shaky
and unethical debt instruments, credit cards are the tip of the iceberg.
Americans know how bad off they are, they're just confused as to whom to
blame. That confusion has been heavily subsidized by interested parties.

== 7 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 8:51 am
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 3, 10:42 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Seems my 50+ years _plus_ the training I got _plus_ the results of
> lots of data collection and studies should trump your mere 30+ years,
> no?

I suppose that is the type of faulty logic one should expect from a
person such as Kyrygowski whose ENTIRE academic AND professional
career has taken place at the same mediocre institution.

No, Frank this is not a game of cards. 50 years of ignorance is 50
years of ignorance. An interesting figure but the ultimate issue is
not the length of time that you have been ignorant but the fact that
you are ARE ignorant. You have amply demonstrated you wasted those 50
years without learning much of anything. Similarly, quantity of data
(and its interpretation) does not substitute for quality. Your "data
collection" might just as well have been stamp collection. It makes
you feel good but it is meaningless to others.

The fact that the content of what you say has been nonsensical for 10,
20, 30, 40 or 50 years does not change the fact that it is
nonsensical.

== 8 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:05 am
From: Dan O

On Dec 3, 6:00 am, Duane Hébert <duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 11:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > On Dec 2, 9:22 am, Duane H bert<duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> >> I am also not convinced that rear ends and especially side swipes
> >> are so rare but if they are couldn't it be partially due to the fact
> >> that not many people ride in traffic?
>
> > Duane, if you're curious about something like that, you should go
> > looking for data. You may be able to find some. As it is, you're
> > repeating your usual pattern - the "I just don't believe the data, I
> > think it's dangerous" thing, with no effort to learn more.
>
> I prefer to use my 30+ years cycling experience to tell me
> what to think about something as simple as where and how
> to ride my bike. Anyway, it's not "the data" that I don't
> believe, it's "your data" and mostly your interpretation of
> it.
>
> I've told you repeatedly that your stats are
> not valid because you are cherry picking outliers (fatalities)
> and trying to use them to show a sigma relationship of some kind.
> Further, you take fatalities caused by cycling, and use as a universe
> of discourse the entire population of the US then compare the rate
> per cyclist to the U of D. Any sensible statistician would conclude,
> at least in part, that increase the test (cyclists) participation
> in the U of D would increase the rate.
>
> I've told you that you can't use statistics based only on
> fatalities and general population but that you need to know
> the number of injuries per cyclist to make any claim as to the
> safety of cycling. You told me that it was up to me to find
> the statistics. As if I'm the AMA or something.
>
> You've made claims that facilities not only don't reduce injury,
> but they can increase injury (links to cyclist killed in bike lanes)
> and that they reduce cycling.
> Yet I have sent you links and links about the correlation between
> increases facilities, increased cycling and decreased injuries
> in Montreal. You then send me links telling me that cycling in
> here is safer than the US. Why? To convince me that we don't
> need facilities. But you ignore the fact that everyone doing any
> serious study here concludes that facilities are working. Duh.
>
> Don't lecture me on statistics. I'm not your student.
>
> >> If driving in traffic is
> >> apparently so dangerous for cars, and I totally agree that it is...
>
> > How dangerous is "so dangerous"? It's apparently not dangerous enough
> > to keep 80 year old women from driving to the mall for shopping.
>
> So now you think that driving is acceptably safe?
> Do you have stats for that? You know Frank, you can't use vague
> feelings to argue against hard statistics. It certainly colors
> your opinion of cycling being safe when you think that driving is
> as well. How about sky diving?
>
> Besides, the band of elderly ladies are going to take care of you
> eventually. Didn't you use the same argument with the elderly Italian
> ladies going to the market to show that uselessness of helmets?
> What makes you think that elderly people are any less brave than
> anyone else? The lady taking her car to the mall probably does
> so because it's the most convenient way for her to get to the mall, in
> spite of the expense, danger whatever. Isn't convenience the reason
> that most people drive instead of using public transportation?
>
> > Personally, I think driving is acceptably safe. I say that, never
> > having had an on-road car crash in over 40 years of driving. Ditto
> > for motorcycling. (I did have somebody back into my car at about 3
> > mph in a parking lot.) If I didn't think it was safe enough, I
> > wouldn't do it.
>
> I've been rear ended twice that was serious. Once as a teenager in my
> father's car when we were rear ended by an 18 wheeler. He had to have
> surgery. I still have problems with my lower back. Car was totaled.
> A second time was as a young adult when I was rear ended by a Coca Cola
> delivery truck whose brakes failed. My car was totaled. Both of these
> happened on roads where I would ride my bike. I can't imagine any
> scenario that would have been good had I been on a bike instead of
> inside of a steel shell.
>
> I've had several other accidents that were less serious. In the last 3
> years, I've had one accident where I was side-swiped, losing my mirror
> assembly and slashing my driver side door, by a motorist trying to avoid
> an ambulance behind them. And I've been hit from behind, twice hard
> enough to dent my bumper. That's in the last 3 years. And again,
> all of these are on streets where I would ride my bike.
>
> I don't report the usual taps that no one reports. I don't report going
> off the road in black ice at White River Junction on my way from
> Montreal to Boston as this has nothing to do with cycling.
>
> So my experience with MV safety is not the same as yours. Though it is
> roughly the same for my wife and many of my friends. I do have a friend
> like you that has never had an accident. But it's not the norm in the
> small sample that I can see.
>
> Though if you take the same tact and use only fatalities when dealing
> with auto accidents, then I guess I haven't experienced that yet.
>
> > As with cycling, I believe that paying attention to traffic,
> > anticipating possible problems, and operating my vehicle competently
> > makes the roads acceptably safe. It's not rocket science.
>
> Defensive driving or cycling is mandatory. Even so, you can't
> control what that truck is going to do. Operating your MV acceptably
> safe (for some definitions of both acceptably and safe) is mandatory to
> reduce your risk. But it doesn't remove the problems caused by others
> not doing so, or just accidents. That's why they call them accidents
> Frank. It's not rocket science.
>
> You started by replying to somewhere that I said,
> "I am also not convinced that rear ends and especially side swipes
> are so rare but if they are couldn't it be partially due to the fact
> that not many people ride in traffic?"
>
> I don't see that you replied to this other than that I should find
> stats. And then you went on to argue based on your personal experience.
> Isn't this what you bitch about with everyone else?
>
> Are you just trying to antagonize me so that I will lash out
> as other have? Why do you insist on chiming in when I'm replying
> to someone else? Is this your mission?
>
> Here's a suggestion. Why don't you create an imaginary poster that you
> can use to preach at. You can supply the arguments that you want to
> contest and then ridicule them when they disagree with you. Who
> would know the difference?

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/FrankNFred001.htm

== 9 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:17 am
From: AMuzi

(PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Tim McNamara:
>> We've punished frugality and encouraged profligate spending for decades
>> in the US. Without credit cards, most Americans would discover just how
>> badly off they are economically. Religion is not the opiate of the
>> masses- Visa and Mastercard are.
>
> For years, I've been waiting for somebody halfway credible to
> comment on national TV that:
>
> 1) If somebody calls you on the phone to sell something, don't
> "check them out thoroughly"... just tell them to get bent
> and hang the f*@#k up.
>
> Once you determine that they are a telephone solicitor, you
> owe them *nothing* in the way of responses or even civility:
> end the conversation... immediately.
>
> 2) You're paying interest on your credit card account to cover
> the purchase of a TV?
>
> What are you? A child? If you are paying credit card
> interest, the odds are 99:1 that something is seriously wrong
> with your judgment/economic education.
>
>
> But nobody's stepped up to the plate on either one. Given the
> breadth and extremity of political opinions expressed in the
> media, I find that surprising.
>
>

I'm with you.

Our two favorite responses to solicitations are "Sure I'll
take a dozen! Please hold." and that wonderful day when I
set to separate callers on 'conference'.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

== 10 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:19 am
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">

On 12/4/2010 9:53 AM, MikeWhy WHO? ANONYMOUSLY SNIPES:
> DirtRoadie wrote:
>> On Dec 3, 10:06 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> On Dec 3, 6:50 am, T�m Sherm�n� �_� <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>>>
>>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>>> On 12/3/2010 12:40 AM, Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>
>>>>> ?"DirtRoadie" <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:f0fb93cf-4650-4bea-a5b0-2b70646bd460@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 2, 4:37 pm, T m Sherm n _ <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>>>>>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/2/2010 11:32 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:> On Dec 2, 9:15 am,
>>>>>>> Frank Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Falsified quote below.
>>>
>>>>>>>>> {I don't waste much time thinking.}
>>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, Frank, we know.
>>>>>>>> DR
>>>
>>>>>>> ... the best argument yet on considering reforming
>>>>>>> the Internet to make anonymous posting much more difficult.
>>>
>>>>>> Reforming the INTERNET?
>>>>>> Um, OK, Just you and Frank get to use it, right?
>>>>>> And anyone with disagrees with you two is barred?
>>>>>> So have you had these extreme right wing leanings all your life?
>>>
>>>>> Ummm... Who wants to regulate and control every aspect of people's
>>>>> lives, behaviors and even speech? Think light bulbs, salt, trans
>>>>> fats, vehicles, street signs (!), internet ("neutrality"), media
>>>>> ("fairness"), etc. etc. etc. Hint: it ain't the right wing.
>>>
>>>>> Bill "but keep on putting Frank in his place; THAT you got right"
>>>>> S.
>>>
>>>> No comment on libel (falsifying quotations) and threatening to
>>>> stalk in real life (contacting co-workers about a Usenet
>>>> discussion) by anonymous posters?
>>>
>>>> The silence by almost everyone is deafening - I guess the silent
>>>> ones approve of such behavior?
>>>
>>> That seems likely. I doubt that anyone else is as poorly informed as
>>> you are.
>>> Tom, your ignorance is without bounds.
>>> If you would actually like to try to make a point I will be glad to
>>> address it.
>>> You are a true Krygowskian disciple with the same sort of "Reverse
>>> Polish Logic."
>>> Thus far you have thrown in a few inflammatory words without the
>>> remotest understanding of what they mean.
>>> Start with "libel."
>>> Please articulate your case. You have used the word but have not
>>> actually said anything of substance so far.
>>> And then please address the significance of Krygowski lying and
>>> misquoting others, as he regularly does. You clearly have a double
>>> standard here.
>>>
>>> DR
>>
>>> > [---------- Large Silent Gap ----------]
>>
>> Thanks, Tom. Speaking of deafening silence, yours confirms that you
>> can justify neither your own position nor Krygowski's.
>>
>> DR
>
> [Crickets]
>

I did not read anything in DirtRoadie's trolling worthy of a response.

Can we add "MikeWhy" to the numbers who see no problem with falsifying
quotations and threatening to harass other posters in real life, while
hiding behind a pseudonym?

--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

== 11 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:29 am
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 4, 10:19 am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net"> wrote:

> I did not read anything in DirtRoadie's post that I could
> competently respond to.

Nice dodge. Can't justify your nonsense, correct?

== 12 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:52 am
From: Tim McNamara

In article <iddqs4$ra0$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Cole <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:

> On 12/3/2010 10:50 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article<id87ug$pvl$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > Peter Cole<peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> Let's just say that some activities have greater ethical burdens
> >> than others. That health care is at the extreme in this regard
> >> seems hardly controversial.
> >
> > How?
> >
> > Seriously. As a provider I have ethical guidelines with which I
> > have to comply; I have an entire section of law (the Psychology
> > Practice Act) with which I have to comply; I have a licensing board
> > which provides regulatory oversight intended to protect consumers
> > from the unethical and idiotic; I am reviewed by private agencies
> > (insurance companies) and government agencies (Department of
> > Health, the board, etc.). Most if not all other licensees
> > providing health care have the same situation.
> >
> > If I am unethical, I can harm someone's life. Yup. So can a
> > financial advisor, the guy bolting the wheels back on your car at
> > Discount Tire, the chef making your dinner, etc. The vast majority
> > of people try to not harm others, fortunately.
>
> Yes, but the other professions you mention, and my own (writing
> software) have none of those mechanisms. There is a reason for that.

That is certainly not true, Peter. Restaurants, for example, have the
Department of Health, USDA and FDA. Food producers have the USDA, food
manufacturers have the USDA and the FDA. Pharmaceutical companies have
the FDA. Virtually every brick-and-mortar store has some kind of
municipal licensing. The construction industry has a comprehensive set
of codes and regulatory mechanisms for inspecting and enforcing them-
including my plumber who's charges ignited most of this thread. Every
business also has OSHA, federal business regulatory agencies and state
business regulatory agencies by the truckload. And overarching all of
that is the court system providing for civil petition for redress.

> >> From your earlier (brief) description of what I presume to be a
> >> typical interaction, I can only describe it as a very badly
> >> implemented process. That is not a necessary state of affairs, and
> >> really has nothing to do with computerization.
> >
> > Not computerization per se, but where the rubber hits the road is
> > the implementation.
>
> Yes, that was my main point.

And the implementation of EMRs is generally bad. They get in the way of
providers getting their work done instead of facilitating it. The
notion that EMRs are going to save billions of dollars in health care
costs is nonsense, at least over the next decade. The fundamental
problem is that computers are inflexible and rigid, whereas the needs
and mental processes of providers are changeable, fluid and adaptable.
What is documentable in one page on a paper chart with standard medical
practice (which is diagrammatic and visually organized) can take 5 pages
of computer documentation (which is organized in narratives and lists);
information that was conveyable at a glance now takes several minutes of
reading.

> >> That's generally the problem: "tradition". To computerize
> >> effectively always means transforming the process to capitalize on
> >> the strengths of technology. Where there's lots of tradition,
> >> either informal (social, role identification, etc.) or formal
> >> (legal, etc.) change is difficult, so technology is compromised,
> >> sometimes to the point of offering no advantage at all. Economic
> >> and performance pressure will coerce people into changing
> >> eventually, the winners are the early adopters.
> >
> > "Tradition" in this case is a set of methods developed over decades
> > of trial and error to find efficient, concise ways of conveying
> > information. There is a lot of amassed wisdom in those practices
> > which EMRs, as they exist, simply set aside because they are not
> > easily accommodated by paragraphic text-based documentation
> > systems.
>
> Computers will require change, it is a transformation that is
> occurring in most industries, some sooner than others. Medical
> systems are just particularly backward.

LOL, the arrogance of the computer programmer! What a hoot. Basically
what you are saying is that medical practice will have to change to fit
the limitations of computer documentation, instead of computer
documentation changing to meed the needs of medical practice.

This is why EMRs suck, man.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_medical_record#Usage
>
> "Even though EMR systems with computerized provider order entry
> (CPOE) have existed for more than 30 years, fewer than 10 percent of
> hospitals as of 2006 have a fully integrated system.[13]
>
> In the United States, 38.4% of office-based physicians reported using
> fully or partially electronic medical record systems (EMR) in
> 2008[14]. However, the same study found that only 20.4% of all
> physicians reported using a system described as minimally functional
> and including the following features: orders for prescriptions,
> orders for tests, viewing laboratory or imaging results, and clinical
> notes."
>
> "In UK veterinary practice, the replacement of paper recording
> systems with electronic methods of storing animal patient information
> escalated from the 1980s and the majority of clinics now use
> electronic medical records. In a sample of 129 veterinary practices,
> 89% used a Practice Management System (PMS) for data recording "
>
> Better to be a dog in the UK it seems.

More arrogance, since you are assuming that computerization = better
health care. When health care is done unerringly by computers, that
might work out to be true.

For now health care is done by people; computer programmers need to
develop the sophistication and flexibility to meet the needs of their
customers instead of trying to force the customers to meet the
limitations of the computer programmer.

> >>>>> What computerization in health care mainly does is make
> >>>>> regulatory oversight easier. The people pushing EMRs are
> >>>>> usually doing so from a position of self-promotion (e.g., they
> >>>>> sell these systems).
> >>>>
> >>>> That would make medical systems somewhat unique, something I
> >>>> have difficulty accepting.
> >>>
> >>> Huh? There is nothing new in self-serving lobbying for
> >>> regulation.
> >>
> >> Sorry, your statement wasn't clear.
> >
> > I don't know how to make it any clearer. The people lobbying for
> > regulatory requirement of EMRs were mainly people who profit from
> > selling EMRs.
>
> Yes, that's to be expected in a political system like that in the US,
> but it doesn't address the question of whether EMR systems are a
> benefit or not.

It does, because the legislative requirement for EMRs was largely
lobbied for by the EMR industry looking to have a guaranteed market.

> >> We spend more, we get less, including an estimated 45K annual
> >> excess deaths a year. The "inequity" is linked to the economics.
> >> The economics is linked to the profit motive.
> >
> > That's a tempting chain of reasoning but, I think, faulty or at
> > least incomplete. Part of the excessive cost of health care in the
> > US is cultural- Americans are quite willing to spend a lot of money
> > to prolong life even when that effort is going to be minimally
> > successful.
>
> Uh, oh. Death panels.

Not at all. That's made up right wing bull fucking shit. The only
death panels that have ever existed in the US were operated by private
insurance companies. The government ended one of the most prevalent
death panels which was relating to dialysis.

> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/health/03iht-03nice.18351335.html
>
> Even in the area of expensive, life prolonging treatments, while
> rationing is inevitable, big pharma is pulling the strings. Much of
> the same can be said for "technology creep" across the board. Drug
> and equipment companies have huge advertising budgets and many
> gimmicks to draw in physicians. It may indeed be "cultural" -- if you
> consider Wall Street "culture.

The attempted avoidance of death in cases where death cannot be
realistically avoided or where death has already functionally happened
(e.g., brain death) ends up being a large chunk of our health care
expenditures. It was that to which I referred.

> >>>> The "conflict of interest" issue I raised was only in the
> >>>> context of your involvement in the health care system.
> >>>
> >>> You have yet to explain what my conflict of interest is.
> >>>
> >>>> I could similarly rant on about IT compensation issues, but I
> >>>> would have a similar conflict.
> >>>
> >>> Or what your conflict of interest is.
>
> It might be opposition to H1B visa quotas which (uniquely) allow
> large numbers of foreign nationals to work in the US in the IT
> industry (heavily lobbied for by US software firms).
>
> No one would expect me to have a neutral outlook on that.
>
> >> I'm only saying (obviously, I thought) that it's hard to be
> >> objective about issues that affect your personal income. That's
> >> perhaps a larger problem in a field with the social consequences
> >> of health care. There are many people interested in preserving the
> >> (bad) status quo, and even many others who would make it worse.
> >
> > That can be applied to every business, of course. Why single out
> > health care?
>
> Because it involves literal "life and death" issues.

So do lots of businesses that aren't considered health care. There are
a lot of life and death issues in the world. Toyota accelerator pedals,
for example. Proper installation of furnace exhaust vents. Carbon
fiber steerers and fork blades.

Apparently I have to answer the question for you because you're not
getting there. The reason is this: health care is *really*
complicated. Patients don't fully understand the issues, know they
don't fully understand the issues, have to make decisions without fully
understanding, know they are dependent on the guidance of the provider
and are in a situation where none of the decisions are going to be
perfect. They are often having to make complicated decisions under
duress; they feel victimized by their illness and by the cost of care
(which is almost always more than they can afford comfortably if at
all); and they are told over and over that health care is a cartel and a
racket and that providers are just out to soak them for as much money as
possible. The treatments carry risks, there is no guarantee of success,
and bad outcomes get a lot more attention than good outcomes.

> >> Profit to shareholders. Industrial medicine. Corporate controlled
> >> HMO's, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals and clinics. You know,
> >> all the stuff that makes America great.
> >
> > Short of redesigning capitalism, whatcha got in mind? A single
> > payer health care system isn't going to happen. There's almost no
> > federal oversight of health insurance, that being the province of
> > the states, so the federal government cannot force health insurance
> > companies to organize as nonprofits as Minnesota has done (to our
> > general advantage).
>
> Capitalism does need to be "redesigned". It has been many times, in
> the US and elsewhere. We are living now in unpleasant economic times
> created by the rollback of some of those "redesigns".

On this we basically agree.

> >> Yes, well it's broken and can't seem to get fixed, despite the
> >> will of the majority, which can only mean our democracy is broken.
> >
> > The will of the people has been neatly divided by brilliant
> > political strategems using artful wedge issues, emotional appeals,
> > bullying, gerrymandering, sophisticated push polling, outright
> > lying, etc. etc.
>
> It can more simply be reduced to the influence of money on the
> political process. This influence has only increased in recent times.
> Big money buys intellectual cover for their self-serving ideologies
> (think tanks, etc.), then they buy propaganda outlets (media empires,
> etc.), lastly they buy the electoral process.

Or, in the case of Diebold, build and sell the electoral process...

> > Which is why individual health care providers doing what's right
> > for their patients as much as they can is still the heart of the
> > profession.
>
> Good intentions are laudable, but the system is broken.

Not as badly as you seem to think, in terms of the health care system.

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

== 13 of 13 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 10:19 am
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 4, 10:05 am, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 6:00 am, Duane Hébert <duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:

> > Here's a suggestion. Why don't you create an imaginary poster that you
> > can use to preach at. You can supply the arguments that you want to
> > contest and then ridicule them when they disagree with you. Who
> > would know the difference?
>
> http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/FrankNFred001.htm

That is absolutely precious!

The truly sad part is that, even in his fantasy world, Frank
Krygowski cannot get along with others. No friends or supporters, not
even imaginary ones.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dropout adjuster screws
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/3af6847b8c4c08e5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 12:54 am
From: Chalo

Rik O'Shea wrote:
>
> are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?

Never required, ever. If I had a bike equipped with them, I'd remove
them both and discard them.

Chalo

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 1:06 am
From: Chalo

Jobst Brandt wrote:
>
> Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft, unsupported
> knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and break axles.

The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with an
oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is to
make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs, single-speed
hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not mind
limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be better
served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
will.

I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots. And
it will sell sooner.

Chalo

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 7:52 am
From: Jobst Brandt

Chalo Colina wrote:

>> Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
>> unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
>> break axles.

> The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
> frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with
> an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is
> to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
> single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

> A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
> derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not mind
> limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be better
> served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
> will.

> I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
> dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
> And it will sell sooner.

I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical dropouts.
I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists use
derailleur gears with standard <10mm diameter hollow axles. I also
don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with this.

As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to vertical
dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear dropouts
caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had worn deeply
gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled jam nuts, so
deep that it required beating on the tire with the fist to dislodge
the axle when removing a rear wheel.

Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
the market for their failings.

Jobst Brandt

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 8:08 am
From: "dustoyevsky@mac.com"

On Dec 4, 3:06 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
> frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with an
> oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is to
> make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs, single-speed
> hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

I haven't used one myself, but I hear good reports IRT the ENO hub
used for fixed gear in vertical and for that matter, horizontal DO's
or track rear fork ends. Couldn't be much "easier" from what I've
seen; only slightly more complicated than OS axles and/or nuts.

> A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener.

What more do you need to open a can?

> A front derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks.

"Just takes a little practice" <g>.

> You might not mind
> limiting your bike to these sad options,

I don't think they're "sad" at all.

> but others would be better
> served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
> will.

And some wouldn't.

> I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
> dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots. And
> it will sell sooner.

Because, for one thing, those are "easier" and cheaper to set up for
fixed or SS use?
--D-y

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:25 am
From: AMuzi

Jobst Brandt wrote:
> Chalo Colina wrote:
>
>>> Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
>>> unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
>>> break axles.
>
>> The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
>> frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with
>> an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is
>> to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
>> single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.
>
>> A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
>> derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not mind
>> limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be better
>> served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
>> will.
>
>> I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
>> dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
>> And it will sell sooner.
>
> I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical dropouts.
> I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists use
> derailleur gears with standard <10mm diameter hollow axles. I also
> don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with this.
>
> As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to vertical
> dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear dropouts
> caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had worn deeply
> gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled jam nuts, so
> deep that it required beating on the tire with the fist to dislodge
> the axle when removing a rear wheel.
>
> Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
> using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
> the market for their failings.

It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie
with horizontal ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 9:29 am
From: AMuzi

dustoyevsky@mac.com wrote:
> On Dec 4, 3:06 am, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
>> frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with an
>> oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it is to
>> make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs, single-speed
>> hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.
>
> I haven't used one myself, but I hear good reports IRT the ENO hub
> used for fixed gear in vertical and for that matter, horizontal DO's
> or track rear fork ends. Couldn't be much "easier" from what I've
> seen; only slightly more complicated than OS axles and/or nuts.
>
>> A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener.
>
> What more do you need to open a can?
>
>> A front derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks.
>
> "Just takes a little practice" <g>.
>
>> You might not mind
>> limiting your bike to these sad options,
>
> I don't think they're "sad" at all.
>
>> but others would be better
>> served in having a bike frame that can escape such a predicament at
>> will.
>
> And some wouldn't.
>
>> I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
>> dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots. And
>> it will sell sooner.
>
> Because, for one thing, those are "easier" and cheaper to set up for
> fixed or SS use?
> --D-y

White ENO hubs are now offered in their own proprietary
fixed spine interface only. When they made eccentric-axle
real track hubs, they sold much better.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 10:14 am
From: Jobst Brandt

Andrew Muzi wrote:

>>>> Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft,
>>>> unsupported knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and
>>>> break axles.

>>> The problem you describe is 100% solvable without crippling a bike
>>> frame with vertical dropouts. It is much easier to use a hub with
>>> an oversized axle, or even just oversized axle locknuts, than it
>>> is to make vertical dropouts function properly with gearhubs,
>>> single-speed hubs, coaster brakes, or (God help us) fixed gears.

>>> A rear derailleur has the sophistication of a can opener. A front
>>> derailleur has the sophistication of chopsticks. You might not
>>> mind limiting your bike to these sad options, but others would be
>>> better served in having a bike frame that can escape such a
>>> predicament at will.

>>> I know that in my own shop, a used road bike frame with horizontal
>>> dropouts is worth about twice as much as one with vertical slots.
>>> And it will sell sooner.

>> I don't understand what you find "crippling" about vertical
>> dropouts. I see only advantages and I believe most avid bicyclists
>> use derailleur gears with standard <10mm diameter hollow axles. I
>> also don't understand what the chainwheel derailleur has to do with
>> this.

>> As I mentioned, I broke many rear axles before switching to
>> vertical dropouts and broke too many longitudinally slotted rear
>> dropouts caused by axle flexing in longitudinal axle slots that had
>> worn deeply gouged wear grooves fro the hardened Campagnolo knurled
>> jam nuts, so deep that it required beating on the tire with the
>> fist to dislodge the axle when removing a rear wheel.

>> Maybe you can explain what advantages you perceive for most riders
>> using dropouts with longitudinal slots... that are nearly gone from
>> the market for their failings.

> It's quicker and cheaper to set up a scrounged urban fixie with
> horizontal ends, as Chalo so trendily points out.

I'm not moved by the need of "scrounged urban fixie" bicycles to be
equipped to make the "crippling" and ease of assembly aspects to
benefit of longitudinal slots... that are in themselves crippling for
riders with QR axles for hill climbing chain tension and gouging
Campagnolo jam nuts.

> With a rear derailleur, vertical ends make more sense.

... or with any QR axle.

Jobst Brandt

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 29"er animosity?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/38001a391592738a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 1:32 am
From: Chalo

Anton Success wrote:
>
> Being a roadie but having bought a 29"er for my wife i've got to ask,
> because I see no Ice Spiker Pro in 28xTheFatterTheBetter

You choose to live in hell and you complain of the inconveniences?
Try hardiness zone 8b and see how much you crave ice tires. If you
must stay in the frozen wasteland, try to develop some of the
legendary tight-lipped stoicism of subarctic peoples.

> and the 29"er Specialized i've got seems to have received the loveless
> treatment from the company: mechanical disk brakes, some junk crank etc:
> Is there some animosity from bike makers towards 29"ers?

It's called "profit motive". Cheap bikes are cheaply made, regardless
of wheel diameter. Some are more intelligent than others, but all are
compromised to fit the price. If you must have better value, seek out
a manufacturer that does not spend quite so much on marketing.

Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding. Bicycle brake
lines are not nearly as robust or as well-protected as those of motor
vehicles. Hydraulic brakes, like sewup tires, amount to a declaration
that a bike is a toy (and only a toy).

Chalo

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 7:24 am
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per Chalo:
>Cable-operated disks are the only ones that make good sense for
>bicycles-- unless you think carrying oil, a syringe, spare hose and
>compression fittings is reasonable for routine riding.

+1.

I put Hope Hydraulics on my first FS... and still have them
(spread across two bikes now).

The Hopes are definitely a superior brake and I *think* I can
detect slightly better modulation when using the Hopes.

The pad retention system is classy too: magnetic with cotter pin
backup. This means that when the wheel is inserted in the field
(as in a flat tire) there is no concern about snagging/bending
the spring clip used on my mechs.

The only ride-related downsides I find to the (open system)
hydros are heating on a very steep descent on a hot day
(sometimes the fluid will expand to where the brakes lock up and
one has to dismount and sit it out until it cools) and the
contingent liability of something/someone happening to the bleed
valve. AFIK the expansion thing does not manifest with
closed-system hydros and the bleed valve is probably a figment of
my basic paranoia.

Having said that, the Avid mechs I have are 100% adequate and, if
I had to buy more brakes I'd buy mechs.

--
PeteCresswell

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cannondale road framesets CAAD
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/2611ed6a070dab78?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 6:54 am
From: TheCoz

On Nov 29, 1:38 pm, "Gianfranco" <paviagianfra...@gemail.com> wrote:
> hi
>
> I've seen different numbers for CAAD road framesets, example CAAD 10 1 /
> CAAD 10 2 / ...
>
> Are different versions or specs ?
>
> Thanks
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: n...@netfront.net ---

Yes. It usually signifies a design change from one year to another.
Cannondale likes to come out with a different design change every
year.
The "R" number, ie: R800, R1000 etc. signifies the components being
used on that particular frame.
Such as CADD4 R800 and a CADD4 R2000 will have the same frame but
different components.
Go to Cannondale web site for more info. http://www.cannondale.com/usa/usaeng/
Hope this helps.
Coz

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cold feet: was: mini pumps
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/aeba5c1beb093521?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 7:39 am
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per Jobst Brandt:
>> Start to feel the energy level dropping, pop a big old grape, wait a
>> few minutes and "Yee Haa"... the surge of energy was that strong.
>
>A sweet soda pop will give you more sugar in a more convenient form,
>with caffeine. It works the same "wonders". The other day on a long
>ride I got a Latte and added lots of sugar to return to more power
>than I had had for many miles.

Yeah. I usually drink decafe, but on a 3-hour+ ride, I'll stop
for a cup of high-test and find it improves the rest of the ride
noticeably.

I think the basic message is that high-tech isn't really required
here. Just quickly-available calories and water. I guess the
electrolyte thing is a consideration for some, but I haven't
found it tb an issue at my modest exertion and temperature
levels.
--
PeteCresswell

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Dec 4 2010 8:39 am
From: Dan O

On Dec 3, 6:34 pm, Jobst Brandt <jbra...@sonic.net> wrote:
> Pete Cresswell wrote:
> >> Gel is under $1 per serving in bulk
> > A loooong time ago, when I used to ride from Philly down to the
> > Jersey shore every Sunday (88 miles in <4 hours IIRC)... I found
> > that grapes worked for me.
> > Start to feel the energy level dropping, pop a big old grape, wait a
> > few minutes and "Yee Haa"... the surge of energy was that strong.
>
> A sweet soda pop will give you more sugar in a more convenient form,
> with caffeine. It works the same "wonders". The other day on a long
> ride I got a Latte and added lots of sugar to return to more power
> than I had had for many miles.

When I eat lunch at McDonalds, I get the Super Size meal (well, they
don't have "Super Size" anymore, but I ask for it anyway in hopes of
getting some extra french fries), and I choose Hi-C to fill my large
drink cup - it has more sugar than any of the other fountain drinks,
and lots of vitamin C to boot.

I discovered the magic power of those little Sun Maid raisin boxes,
and have since learned the palpable sustained boost offered by Power
Bars (which are also fortified w/ lots of vitamin C).

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Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/?hl=en

rec.bicycles.tech - 14 new messages in 5 topics - digest

2010-12-04T00:32:00.000-08:00

rec.bicycles.tech
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech?hl=en

rec.bicycles.tech@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Question from a defacto newb: road vs cyclocross, what the former has going
for it? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/79496e087311cc16?hl=en
* Quotation Hierarchy - 8 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/098895388786dab6?hl=en
* Google munchkins eating code? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/c1af4325161a5c91?hl=en
* Cannondale road framesets CAAD - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/2611ed6a070dab78?hl=en
* CAAD Cannondale road framesets - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/8780626f7883d747?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question from a defacto newb: road vs cyclocross, what the former has
going for it?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/79496e087311cc16?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:08 pm
From: Norman

On Dec 3, 6:30 am, Anton Success <snd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aside from vbrakes is there any difference between cross and road
> bikes?
>
> I need to find a reason to get a roadbike after having switched to a
> vbrake based flatbarred cross
> that takes up to about 700x38 tires. I mean, there've got to be some
> advantages to offset the inferior brakes,
> limited rubber choices for a mainstream user. What are they?

As far as I can tell, most cross bikes are rebadged tourers
with slightly higher bottoms brakets and no rack/fender
holes. I'm not sure but what the BB clearance isn't an
artifact of stuffing larger tires on it, either.

Furthermore, any tourer that can't accept 38mm tires is
probably not worth buying either. Racing bicycles are right
out.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:15 pm
From: Clive George

On 04/12/2010 03:08, Norman wrote:

> As far as I can tell, most cross bikes are rebadged tourers
> with slightly higher bottoms brakets and no rack/fender
> holes.

That seems unlikely to me. Is the geometry of most cross bikes closer to
tourer or racing?

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:41 pm
From: Tim McNamara

In article <pMOdnXOTV6PYL2TRnZ2dnUVZ8k2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>,
Clive George <clive@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> On 04/12/2010 03:08, Norman wrote:
>
> > As far as I can tell, most cross bikes are rebadged tourers
> > with slightly higher bottoms brakets and no rack/fender
> > holes.
>
> That seems unlikely to me. Is the geometry of most cross bikes closer to
> tourer or racing?

Racing. Modern cross bikes have a lower BB than used to be the case,
because with clipless pedals there's no need to be able to pedal with
the toe clips and straps pointing down. The head tube might be a bit
slacker than a road bike.

My Gunnar Crosshairs also functions quite well as a road bike; I used it
in many road races, crits, training rides, etc. And it worked well for
brevets and I rode it on a tour in the Alps with a Carradice saddle bag.

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quotation Hierarchy
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/098895388786dab6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:18 pm
From: Tim McNamara

In article <idb4f5$937$3@reader1.panix.com>,
David Scheidt <dscheidt@panix.com> wrote:

> Tad McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid> wrote:
> :Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> :> In article <id8cc7$o7u$7@reader1.panix.com>,
> :> David Scheidt <dscheidt@panix.com> wrote:
>
> :>> Current versions of tin support UTF-8. I do use UTF-8, but tin
> :>> doesn't insert headers to show that unless there is non-ascii text,
> : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> :>> like this gratuitous ?,
>
>
> :> Hmm, if you consider curiosity and interest gratuitous then we'll just
> :> leave it at that.
>
>
> :Your skin is too thin here, it would appear.
>
> :It seems clear to me that David was not saying that your post was
> :gratuitous, but that he was including a gratuitous "non-ascii text"
> :character (perhaps rendered as a space or question mark)
> :so that tin would detect it and so that you could then look at
> :the post's headers.
>
> That's exactly correct. The gratuitous non-ascci was ?, utf-8 E2 98
> A3, the bio-hazard symbol,
> <http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2623/index.htm>, which
> explains the snark about it belonging elsethread.

I misunderstood.

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:22 pm
From: Tim McNamara

In article
<06b59b05-f7d0-427f-a551-a8b49b3f18f2@29g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>,
Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 1, 11:26�pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <id5iul$ut...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >
> > To my experience and observation, computer systems in health care
> > documentation have reduced not improved productivity. �I have to
> > either work an hour longer or see one less client per day to
> > compensate for this; I have managed to make my documentation sing
> > my laptop more efficient than most people I work with, but it still
> > takes more of my time than my old handwritten notes or dictation
> > (not counting the time of the transcriptionist). �I mainly do it
> > because I have a professional looking report- compared to a
> > handwritten note- ready almost immediately, whereas dictation and
> > transcription inserts a delay of up to a week.
>
> One chiropractor of my acquaintance was a huge fan of Dragon
> Naturally Speaking voice recognition software. IIRC, he used it
> primarily to report diagnoses to the state's Workman's Compensation
> program, which was something of a side business for him. He was very
> excited to demonstrate it to me, and it certainly seemed like it
> would generate reports faster than any other method.

That software does have a medical dictionary available which would make
dictation easier. I've never tried dictation software, in part because
I work in environments that tend to be noisy and I've wondered if that
would be problematic (although if the mic is designed correctly,
probably not).

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:50 pm
From: Tim McNamara

In article <id87ug$pvl$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Cole <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:

> On 12/1/2010 11:26 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article<id5iul$ut8$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > Peter Cole<peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/30/2010 8:17 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article<id38j5$j4c$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> >>> Peter Cole<peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>> Why isn't profitable health care a good thing?
> >>>>
> >>>> Lots of obvious reasons, the most prominent being conflict of
> >>>> interest (profit over health).
> >>>
> >>> How is making a profit from one's business a conflict of
> >>> interest?
> >>
> >> That's a good question, and one that's at the heart of the health
> >> care debate. Broadly speaking, the answer falls into the moral
> >> hazard area. As a society, we've shifted many activities from the
> >> private to the public arena, generally based on pragmatic aims.
> >
> > You have not yet answered the question. In order to make a living,
> > I have to make a profit (well, more accurately my employer has to
> > make a profit and pass some of that profit to me). So far I do not
> > see that this is a greater conflict of interest in health care than
> > it is in bike repair or housing construction.
>
> Let's just say that some activities have greater ethical burdens than
> others. That health care is at the extreme in this regard seems
> hardly controversial.

How?

Seriously. As a provider I have ethical guidelines with which I have to
comply; I have an entire section of law (the Psychology Practice Act)
with which I have to comply; I have a licensing board which provides
regulatory oversight intended to protect consumers from the unethical
and idiotic; I am reviewed by private agencies (insurance companies) and
government agencies (Department of Health, the board, etc.). Most if
not all other licensees providing health care have the same situation.

If I am unethical, I can harm someone's life. Yup. So can a financial
advisor, the guy bolting the wheels back on your car at Discount Tire,
the chef making your dinner, etc. The vast majority of people try to
not harm others, fortunately.

> >> Our health care system is unique among our industrialized peers in
> >> offering poor value and uneven coverage. Many consider this an
> >> ethical issue. I agree.
> >
> > Unequal access to health care is an ethical matter in my opinion.
> > I have addressed this in another post.
> >
> >>>>> ;-) It's a funny thing. If I make a profit from selling
> >>>>> something to you, I'm running a successful business. If you
> >>>>> make a profit selling something to me, you're ripping me off.
> >>>>
> >>>> Says who?
> >>>
> >>> General attitude of the public. Most customers have no idea how
> >>> much it costs a business to be in business, and assumes that
> >>> profits are much higher than they really are. I certainly fall
> >>> into this thinking- I can't imagine any way in which a $60
> >>> bicycle chain isn't creating about $50 in profit along the chain
> >>> of sellers.
> >>
> >> Again, there are very real economic issues driving
> >> cost/price/profit numbers. Monopolies, externalized costs, stuff
> >> like that. The medical industry is loaded with them, so are many
> >> other industries, but arguably less important ones.
> >
> > Energy? Agriculture?
> >
> > Of course there are very real economic issues driving
> > cost/price/profit. That verges on truism and tautology.
>
> Yes, except I itemized two big ones, monopolies and externalities,
> perhaps the biggest flaws in capitalism. Of course the energy and
> agriculture industries exhibit similar exploitable weaknesses, but
> then farmers and roughnecks don't take the Hippocratic oath.

Neither did I, since that's not in my field. It is optional for doctors
these days, I am given to understand.

> >>>> Medical information handling is still in the dark ages (I know
> >>>> from whence I speak).
> >>>
> >>> Moving it into the light ages is expensive. One large local
> >>> clinic simply closed the doors and sold off the equipment because
> >>> the cost of moving to the mandated electronic medical record
> >>> system would have bankrupted them ($3.8 million is the claimed
> >>> figure, which seems impossible to me but I haven't priced out an
> >>> EMR plus 50 computers plus servers plus IT tech time, etc.).
> >>
> >> Broadly speaking, computer systems are justified to improve
> >> productivity. That includes amortizing the costs over the
> >> projected lifetime. Having implemented several such systems, I'd
> >> say, that in my experience, that goal has always been handily met.
> >
> > To my experience and observation, computer systems in health care
> > documentation have reduced not improved productivity. I have to
> > either work an hour longer or see one less client per day to
> > compensate for this; I have managed to make my documentation sing
> > my laptop more efficient than most people I work with, but it still
> > takes more of my time than my old handwritten notes or dictation
> > (not counting the time of the transcriptionist). I mainly do it
> > because I have a professional looking report- compared to a
> > handwritten note- ready almost immediately, whereas dictation and
> > transcription inserts a delay of up to a week.
>
> From your earlier (brief) description of what I presume to be a
> typical
> interaction, I can only describe it as a very badly implemented
> process. That is not a necessary state of affairs, and really has
> nothing to do with computerization.

Not computerization per se, but where the rubber hits the road is the
implementation.

> >>> Our clinic does not have an EMR. We won't get one because it's
> >>> not affordable. At this point we are not mandated to do so, but
> >>> at some point that will change (and at that point you'll get to
> >>> see my inner Republican come out).
> >>
> >> Don't look now, but I think it's already out in force.
> >
> > LOL! Not quite because on some points I am playing a bit of
> > devil's advocate, although I do think the points I am making have
> > validity even though my personal choices are somewhat different.
> > No one is completely right or wrong on everything, even
> > Republicans.
>
> They come as close as anything I've seen, and no, I'm not being
> snarky.
>
> >
> >>> I have to deal with a half dozen EMR systems in my consulting
> >>> practice. They range from bad to execrable. A pen and a piece of
> >>> paper- or a typewriter- remains faster, simpler, easier and more
> >>> reliable than any computer system. I spend twice as much time on
> >>> documentation now as I did 10 years ago, with the advent of
> >>> computerization. To my observation in my practice, EMRs do not
> >>> make documentation more accurate or easier to find.
> >>
> >> My experience as a patient doesn't agree with that claim. I'm sure
> >> there are plenty of bad systems in use, and I'm also sure that
> >> many users aren't particularly adept and struggle accordingly. All
> >> that doesn't invalidate the concept. Computer systems have been
> >> driving productivity for decades now, and are used virtually
> >> universally, mostly where such use isn't mandatory, and where
> >> productivity is monitored by people with very sharp pencils (so to
> >> speak).
> >
> > Computer systems in many fields have vastly improved productivity-
> > perhaps ironically having some of the greatest impact on workers
> > who don't actually use the computers themselves. The usability of
> > EMRs is generally awful, in part because they do not accommodate
> > the documentation traditions of decades, traditions that developed
> > to maximize rapid assimilation of information in concise formats
> > and thus enabling of efficient decision making (this is less of an
> > issue in my own field, which has traditionally relied on narrative
> > documentation and pretty readily translates into computer formats).
>
> That's generally the problem: "tradition". To computerize effectively
> always means transforming the process to capitalize on the strengths
> of technology. Where there's lots of tradition, either informal
> (social, role identification, etc.) or formal (legal, etc.) change is
> difficult, so technology is compromised, sometimes to the point of
> offering no advantage at all. Economic and performance pressure will
> coerce people into changing eventually, the winners are the early
> adopters.

"Tradition" in this case is a set of methods developed over decades of
trial and error to find efficient, concise ways of conveying
information. There is a lot of amassed wisdom in those practices which
EMRs, as they exist, simply set aside because they are not easily
accommodated by paragraphic text-based documentation systems.

> >>> What computerization in health care mainly does is make
> >>> regulatory oversight easier. The people pushing EMRs are usually
> >>> doing so from a position of self-promotion (e.g., they sell these
> >>> systems).
> >>
> >> That would make medical systems somewhat unique, something I have
> >> difficulty accepting.
> >
> > Huh? There is nothing new in self-serving lobbying for regulation.
>
> Sorry, your statement wasn't clear.

I don't know how to make it any clearer. The people lobbying for
regulatory requirement of EMRs were mainly people who profit from
selling EMRs.

> >>>> We pay twice as much and get half as good. That's the bottom
> >>>> line. Health care in this country is appalling. You are
> >>>> defending the indefensible. You also have a conflict of
> >>>> interest. See the connection?
> >>
> >>> Health care is expensive because the threshold for being able to
> >>> practice is necessarily very high. For a licensed psychologist
> >>> in most states, a doctorate is required (eight years of post-high
> >>> school education) with APA-accredited internships plus two years
> >>> of pull-time supervised work plus passing national and state
> >>> board examinations plus optional board certification. Current
> >>> cost for this is close to $200,000.
> >>>
> >>> For a physician, the bar is higher: four years of college, four
> >>> years of medical school, plus up to 8 years of residency before
> >>> one can take the tests to become an independently licensed
> >>> physician. On top of that can be another 4 years of training in
> >>> some specialties. A doctor is about 30 years old by the time
> >>> they are able to pursue their careers as full professionals. It
> >>> takes that long because there is really a *lot* of stuff to
> >>> learn.
> >>>
> >>> The total cost of preparing a physician to that point pushes up
> >>> to at least $500,000 (a lot of which is the cost of training them
> >>> in teaching hospitals, the cost of which is often borne by
> >>> taxpayers; this number was from a decade ago, BTW); 80% of
> >>> doctors pay for their medical school and associated training fees
> >>> with student loans resulting in about $200-250K in personal debt.
> >>> They have to begin paying this debt back after leaving medical
> >>> school, when they begin their residencies. One of my college
> >>> buddies found that his loan payments were greater than his income
> >>> during his residency.
> >>
> >> Yes, and the task of training physicians in Europe and Asia is no
> >> different, yet those medical systems provide superior care at much
> >> lower costs.
> >
> > Training in Europe and Asia is generally somewhat cheaper because
> > more of it is paid for by taxpayers (and in much of Asia/India, the
> > cost of most everything is lower along with quality of life).
>
> Sorry, I meant Asia to mean developed Asia, not developing.
>
>
> > America has rejected the idea of public goods over the past 30
> > years, preferring the model of private opulence and public squalor.
> > As for providing superior health care, that's a mixed bag.
> > Outcome studies indicate that various different systems have
> > different superiorities and different weaknesses; "better" and
> > "worse" are specific rather than global. What is global is that
> > the American health care system costs much more per capita than
> > anywhere else in the world. We spend a lot more money for outcomes
> > that are usually no better and often worse than most other places
> > in the world. The chief reason for this is inequity in access to
> > health care.
>
> We spend more, we get less, including an estimated 45K annual excess
> deaths a year. The "inequity" is linked to the economics. The
> economics is linked to the profit motive.

That's a tempting chain of reasoning but, I think, faulty or at least
incomplete. Part of the excessive cost of health care in the US is
cultural- Americans are quite willing to spend a lot of money to prolong
life even when that effort is going to be minimally successful.

> >>> So, why is it a conflict of interest for the most highly trained
> >>> individuals in our society to make money? Why is it not a
> >>> conflict of interest when someone is making money selling
> >>> groceries or cars or bicycles or computers or cleaning up murder
> >>> and accident scenes or writing Web sites? Why do you think that
> >>> people providing goods and services in health care should operate
> >>> under some different kind of economy than the rest of the
> >>> population? (FWIW I have an answer to that question that will
> >>> hopefully surprise you).
> >>
> >> The "conflict of interest" issue I raised was only in the context
> >> of your involvement in the health care system.
> >
> > You have yet to explain what my conflict of interest is.
> >
> >> I could similarly rant on about IT compensation issues, but I
> >> would have a similar conflict.
> >
> > Or what your conflict of interest is.
>
> I'm only saying (obviously, I thought) that it's hard to be objective
> about issues that affect your personal income. That's perhaps a
> larger problem in a field with the social consequences of health
> care. There are many people interested in preserving the (bad) status
> quo, and even many others who would make it worse.

That can be applied to every business, of course. Why single out health
care?

> >> As to the unrelated question of why health care should operate
> >> under a "different economy", again, it's a social question. Many,
> >> including myself, feel that the medical needs of society aren't
> >> well served by a for-profit system.
> >
> > Whose profit? The UK is a non-profit government-run system, yet
> > primary care physicians can make $200K a year combining base salary
> > plus outcome-based performance measures.
>
> Profit to shareholders. Industrial medicine. Corporate controlled
> HMO's, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals and clinics. You know, all
> the stuff that makes America great.

Short of redesigning capitalism, whatcha got in mind? A single payer
health care system isn't going to happen. There's almost no federal
oversight of health insurance, that being the province of the states, so
the federal government cannot force health insurance companies to
organize as nonprofits as Minnesota has done (to our general advantage).

> >> Among the industrialized countries, this is the majority opinion,
> >> it is only debatable in the US, with our (industry propaganda
> >> supported) culture of pseudo-individualism.
> >
> > There's not global support for the current system in US health
> > care.
>
> Understatement of the month.
>
> > The majority of providers, for example, want to see universal
> > health care and most would prefer to see a publicly financed
> > system. The insurance industry is going to naturally be opposed to
> > this since it would in effect put them out of business. There are
> > other options such as the German or Swiss systems. My preference
> > is for a UK/Canadian style system.
>
> Yes, well it's broken and can't seem to get fixed, despite the will
> of the majority, which can only mean our democracy is broken.

The will of the people has been neatly divided by brilliant political
strategems using artful wedge issues, emotional appeals, bullying,
gerrymandering, sophisticated push polling, outright lying, etc. etc.

> >> If the last few decades haven't busted the myth of the market's
> >> invisible hand, I don't know what will. Those many who still cling
> >> to it are practicing faith-based economics. As with any kind of
> >> religious zealotry, conflicting evidence doesn't call beliefs into
> >> question, the faithful just double down. It would be funny if the
> >> stakes weren't so high and the results so tragic.
> >
> > We agree.
> >
>
> And yet we still get the invisible hand job.

Yep.

Which is why individual health care providers doing what's right for
their patients as much as they can is still the heart of the profession.

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:53 pm
From: Tim McNamara

In article
<dfbffd2b-1998-4511-8c5b-5010fff1dbda@r19g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
Jay Beattie <jbeattie@lindsayhart.com> wrote:

> On Dec 1, 3:45�pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article <4cf5b024$0$1634$742ec...@news.sonic.net>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > �SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> > > On 11/30/2010 8:28 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
> >
> > > > We pay twice as much and get half as good. That's the bottom
> > > > line. Health care in this country is appalling. You are
> > > > defending the indefensible. You also have a conflict of
> > > > interest. See the connection?
> >
> > > Not all health care in the U.S. is like that. Obama even
> > > mentioned some of the very efficient health care providers in the
> > > U.S. such as Kaiser Permenante, whose whole idea was to bring
> > > health care to the "common man." Oh, and it's a non-profit. Oh,
> > > and it was the only HMO in California to receive a four star
> > > rating (Excellent) for meeting national standards of care. None
> > > of the for-profits received that rating. Kaiser isn't perfect of
> > > course, you have to know your way around the barriers they put up
> > > to ration care, but overall they do a good job.
> >
> > > That $200 band-aid is like the $10,000 NASA toilet seat. The cost
> > > of everything in health care is burdened with a tremendous amount
> > > of overhead that needs to be paid for.
> >
> > In these discussions we also have to separate health care from
> > health care finance. �Insurance companies are not health care
> > providers, they are health care finance providers. �Doctors,
> > nurses, etc., are health care providers and are every bit as much
> > at the mercy of the health care finance problem as are the
> > patients.
> >
> > There's another reason that American health care costs are twice as
> > high as the next most expensive country: �we have no
> > government-imposed cost controls except for the public options
> > (Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP and VA). �Almost every other country
> > controls health care costs pretty stringently to very stringently;
> > e.g., the UK does it through requiring everyone to see a primary
> > care provider before seeing a specialist, Japan does it by
> > micromanaging health care charges. �
> >
> > Pharmaceutical companies, medical equipment manufacturers don't
> > really care because these are all secondary markets- the primary
> > market is the US because there are no controls on the market. �We
> > use the fungible notion of "usual and customary fee" instead.
> > �These companies make almost all their profit in the US.
>
> Medicare Coverage D, however, is not about cost containment but is
> rather a feeding trough for US drug makers. For example, my wife
> takes a medication that was recently approved by the FDA and is now
> available in the US for approximately $4K per month. She gets the
> same drug from Canada for abut $300 a month.
>
> If she bought the US drug, she would blow-through her doughnut hole
> (deductible) and in to 95% coverage layer under Coverage D. But, if
> she buys Canadian, it does not apply against the doughnut hole -- its
> totally out of pocket. No credit for non-US drug purchases. She
> must buy American to get any benefit under Coverage D.
>
> This gets kind of brain jarring, but there is a point at which a
> patient is rewarded for buying US drugs that are many, many times
> more expensive than Canadian drugs. This punishes frugality and
> funnels tax dollars to US drug makers.

We've punished frugality and encouraged profligate spending for decades
in the US. Without credit cards, most Americans would discover just how
badly off they are economically. Religion is not the opiate of the
masses- Visa and Mastercard are.

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:42 pm
From: Frank Krygowski

On Dec 3, 9:00 am, Duane Hébert <duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 11:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > Duane, if you're curious about something like that, you should go
> > looking for data. You may be able to find some. As it is, you're
> > repeating your usual pattern - the "I just don't believe the data, I
> > think it's dangerous" thing, with no effort to learn more.
>
> I prefer to use my 30+ years cycling experience to tell me
> what to think about something as simple as where and how
> to ride my bike.

Seems my 50+ years _plus_ the training I got _plus_ the results of
lots of data collection and studies should trump your mere 30+ years,
no?

> I've told you repeatedly that your stats are
> not valid because you are cherry picking outliers (fatalities)
> and trying to use them to show a sigma relationship of some kind.

Duane, as with cycling knowledge, I've seen no evidence that your
judgment on data analysis is better than mine. Thus, while your
telling me something repeatedly may make your opinion clear, it does
not prove your opinion correct.

I could produce and cite a few dozen articles, scholarly and
otherwise, that use fatalities to judge the relative safety of various
activities, not just cycling. I know that wouldn't convince you, but
you should at least realize that your opinion is not widely accepted.

> I've told you that you can't use statistics based only on
> fatalities and general population but that you need to know
> the number of injuries per cyclist to make any claim as to the
> safety of cycling. You told me that it was up to me to find
> the statistics. As if I'm the AMA or something.

I expect that someone who wants to argue facts about cycling's dangers
would find some facts to argue with.

Try looking up that Moritz article. It dealt with injuries of LAB
members who were dedicated commuters. You know, riding in traffic to
get to work. Median 11 years or 32,000 miles between injuries that
cost even $50. No fatalities.

> Yet I have sent you links and links about the correlation between
> increases facilities, increased cycling and decreased injuries
> in Montreal. You then send me links telling me that cycling in
> here is safer than the US. Why? To convince me that we don't
> need facilities. But you ignore the fact that everyone doing any
> serious study here concludes that facilities are working. Duh.

I sent you links telling you that cycling in Montreal is safer than
the US average because you were telling me that cycling in Montreal is
very dangerous! Remember claiming that riding a pleasant, twisty
country road up there put you at great risk of being run down from
behind? Remember telling about how motorists wouldn't notice you on a
wide open, high visibility highway? Remember your repeated horror
stories, that I originally countered by saying "Gee, my sister,
brother in law and niece just got back from riding up there on
vacation and they said it was fine"? The data I eventually found was
to prove what they said and disprove what you said. And it did so, in
spades.

If you've got better data, let's have it. If not, you've just shown
that your opinion on the great danger is wrong.

> So now you think that driving is acceptably safe?
> Do you have stats for that?

Yes, but to cut to the chase on that point: I accept the safety level
of driving. I demonstrate that by driving a car. If the safety were
not acceptable to me, I would not drive.

My bet is that you, too, accept the current safety level of driving -
that is, my bet is you're a driver.

> How about sky diving?

I think sky diving is too dangerous. I don't sky dive.

> I've been rear ended twice that was serious. Once as a teenager in my
> father's car when we were rear ended by an 18 wheeler. He had to have
> surgery. I still have problems with my lower back. Car was totaled.
> A second time was as a young adult when I was rear ended by a Coca Cola
> delivery truck whose brakes failed. My car was totaled. Both of these
> happened on roads where I would ride my bike. I can't imagine any
> scenario that would have been good had I been on a bike instead of
> inside of a steel shell.
>
> I've had several other accidents that were less serious. In the last 3
> years, I've had one accident where I was side-swiped, losing my mirror
> assembly and slashing my driver side door, by a motorist trying to avoid
> an ambulance behind them. And I've been hit from behind, twice hard
> enough to dent my bumper. That's in the last 3 years. And again,
> all of these are on streets where I would ride my bike.

OK, my sympathies. Maybe you shouldn't drive. Again, I've never had
a car crash, outside of a super-low-speed parking lot maneuver. Maybe
driving is too dangerous for you.

> I do have a friend
> like you that has never had an accident. But it's not the norm in the
> small sample that I can see.

Anyone with decent understanding of data collection knows about the
fallacies that can arise from small samples. If you want a true
picture of motor vehicle safety, look at the large population data.
This is fundamental.

As an analogy: It's possible for you to meet someone who's won a
million dollars in a lottery. That small sample won't prove that you
should invest all your money on next week's lottery. Instead, look at
the 100 million other folks that also bought lottery tickets, and note
how many of them lost.

> Defensive driving or cycling is mandatory. Even so, you can't
> control what that truck is going to do.

I do so routinely. Every time I control a lane in front of a truck, I
prevent him from passing when he shouldn't. Anyone can learn to do
the same.

- Frank Krygowski

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:21 pm
From: Frank Krygowski

On Dec 3, 1:44 am, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 2:09 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Again: significant cycling injuries are rare, and "warning" people
> > that they are common is a distortion of the truth.
>
> I don't know whether you are telling _me_ that or the world in
> general, but I don't recall ever saying that significant cycling
> injuries were common or rare. I said cycling, particularly in
> traffic, is dangerous. And I gave examples of some other activities I
> consider dangerous, and previously posted the dictionary meaning of
> the word, and consider what I've said to still be true.

In my view, if a person spends a significant portion of his time
saying "cycling is dangerous" while never mentioning the danger of
other activities, he's overemphasizing the danger of cycling.

I posted data showing Australian walking is far more dangerous per
mile than Australian cycling, in terms of fatalities per mile. You
don't seem to have responded. If walking is more dangerous, it seems
to me you should at least append "but not as dangerous as walking" to
all your "cycling is dangerous" fear mongering.

To expand on that idea: I previously wrote that walking across a road
is dangerous " Only in the same way that walking down stairs is
dangerous, using a power screwdriver is dangerous, using a _manual_
screwdriver is dangerous ("Always wear safety goggles with this
tool!"), doing the dishes is dangerous (knives!!), eating dinner is
dangerous ("Hundreds of choking deaths every year!"), getting out of
bed is dangerous... there's no end to the danger out there!"

The true measure of danger is not whether you can dream up some way
that an injury or fatality might occur. The true measure is to
examine how many injuries or fatalities actually _do_ occur. And when
that number is determined, the only way to judge what the number means
is by comparison with other activities.

We can compare with walking, with playing basketball, and even with
things like falling out of bed. Cycling causes fewer ER visits in the
US than does basketball, with (I'm sure) far fewer hours
participation, yet I've never heard a single person say "Basketball is
dangerous." In at least some years, there have been more fatalities
in Canada from falling out of bed than from bicycling, yet I've never
known any Canadian to propose placing all mattresses directly on the
floor. But I've heard way too much "Bicycling can kill you" nonsense.

If you were claiming all the activities in a long list were dangerous,
and ranking them in order of danger, I'd complain a lot less - partly
because any such reasonably complete list would show bicycling to be
quite safe. Such an approach would indicate a lack of bias and fear
mongering.

> Thankfully chainsaws danger is easier to limit with careful use.
>
> On a bicycle the motorists add an extra element of unknown danger.

Do you realize that most people reading those few lines would say "He
apparently thinks cycling is more dangerous than using a chainsaw"?

If you think motorists are, as you say, "out to get you," and if you
have as many crashes and close calls as you say, my opinion is you're
doing something wrong. I suggest you get a copy of _Cyclecraft_ by
John Franklin. (You'd want the left-sided British edition, I'm sure,
not the new right-sided North American edition.) It's really not very
difficult to be extremely safe on a bike. You should be able to learn
to do it.

- Frank Krygowski

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:53 pm
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 3, 10:42 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Duane, as with cycling knowledge, I've seen no evidence that your
> judgment on data analysis is better than mine. Thus, while your
> telling me something repeatedly may make your opinion clear, it does
> not prove your opinion correct.

Back at ya' Frank. We have seen MUCH evidence that you are in denial
and misstate
evidence that you rely upon.
So for posterity let take one example of many:
Your ill-informed smarmy summary of:
http://hej.sagepub.com/content/60/4/293.abstract
was "And those guys in England found no injuries at all!"
That is even YOUR exclamation point.

But the folks who actually conduct the test concluded differently:
"It is likely that the higher rate of injury on off-road cycle paths
reported in other countries would be confirmed"

WE realize that you do NOT understand.
We also realize that you REFUSE to understand.

And speaking of argument by repetition, you have to be the all time
record holder of repeating erroneous statements in hope that some one
will believe them.

Now repeat after me,
"There are dangers in bicycling." See if you can work forward from
there. No, not "extremely dangerous." No one here (except you) has
said that. Anyone can easily search and see that you are lying about
about others having used that term, just as you lied about what the
test above showed.

And, Frank, repeat it as often as you wish, but you are lying or
delusional when you say or think that your judgment has any merit
whatsoever. It does not.

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 11:39 pm
From: RobertH

On Dec 3, 10:42 pm, Frank Krygowski <frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:

No fatalities!! You mean -- no deceased cyclists filled out Moritz's
survey? Astonishing.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Google munchkins eating code?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/c1af4325161a5c91?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 8:37 pm
From: DougC

On 12/3/2010 3:11 PM, Duane H�bert wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 4:05 PM, DougC wrote:
>> On 12/3/2010 12:14 PM, fiultra5 wrote:
>>> On Dec 3, 12:41 pm, DougC<dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/3/2010 6:40 AM, DougC wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/2/2010 5:12 PM, T m Sherm n _> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/2/2010 1:48 PM, fiultra5 aka Andr Jute wrote:
>>>>>>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no
>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received
>>>>>>> RBT
>>>>>>> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>>>>
>>>>>> When I tried to search the Google RBT archives yesterday, a lot of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> pages refused to load.
>>>>
>>>>> This sounds similar to my problem--except that I am accessing RBT
>>>>> through Thunderbird/Charter email/newservers....
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps I was a bit quick to pull the trigger on my own PC?
>>>>> ~
>>>>
>>>> Well wouldn't you know it... now it seems to be working like normal (at
>>>> least, the previous post did) ;D
>>>>
>>>> The previous post sent and completed in ~2 seconds, and showed up on
>>>> the
>>>> newsgroup....
>>>> ~
>>>
>>> My newsreader is still getting no RBT posts from Google because the
>>> server is getting nothing from Google.
>>>
>>> In addition Google is now doing something really infuriating,
>>> demanding that I type in a distorted word before I sign in, before
>>> every post I send, etc. The words are so distorted that I, a
>>> typographer (!), have troubel making them out so it can take two or
>>> three tries.
>>>
>>> Idiots are everywhere these days, empowered by the internet, magnified
>>> internationally beyond their most malicious dreams.
>>>
>>> Andre Jute
>>> Ugh!
>>
>> Google uses reCAPTCHA, which has a noble purpose (helping to convert
>> scanned in vintage book texts) but can be somewhat taxing at times. With
>> many websites' implementations, if the words it gives are too difficult
>> to read then you can hit F5/refresh to get a different word set.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReCAPTCHA
>>
>> reCAPTCHA (and other captcha companies as well) must occasionally shift
>> the distortion types frequently to keep ahead of spammers trying to
>> write programs to automatically crack the system.
>> ~
>
> Why not use an NNTP server like news.eternal-september.org
> and a newsreader like Thunderbird? Seems quicker than google...
>

Well in my case--it's very rare that I have any problems with the
Charter newsgroup service, and it's already paid for with my usual cable
internet anyway.

I've never heard of eternal-september, but most other places that offer
news feeds want money for them.
~

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Nov 29 2010 11:38 am
From: "Gianfranco"

I've seen different numbers for CAAD road framesets, example CAAD 10 1 /
CAAD 10 2 / ...

Are different versions or specs ?

Thanks

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CAAD Cannondale road framesets
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/8780626f7883d747?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Nov 30 2010 2:53 am
From: "/0\\"

I've seen different numbers for CAAD road framesets, example CAAD 10 1 /
CAAD 10 2 / ...

Are different versions or specs ?

Thanks

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

==============================================================================

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rec.bicycles.racing - 4 new messages in 2 topics - digest

2010-12-04T00:29:00.000-08:00

rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Dickipedia: Lance Armstrong - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/fc631cf1ef4526b7?hl=en
* Moonlighting as a chef or possibly a clown ??? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/67640a4d98f082de?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Dickipedia: Lance Armstrong
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/fc631cf1ef4526b7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:04 pm
From: BLafferty

On 12/3/2010 3:36 PM, --D-y wrote:
> On Dec 3, 1:58 pm, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Dec 3, 11:19 am, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/3/2010 11:28 AM, --D-y wrote:
>>
>
>>
>> I read it once and gave it to my wife who got a good laugh out of it.
>
> Birds of a feather.

Very original.
>
>> If
>> you feel it's a personal attack and smear, by all means complain to the
>> author(s). Let us know how they respond.
>
> Go jump in the lake.

Why would I do that at this time of year?
>
>> Nor do I, but Lance apparently does/did.
>
> Or maybe "hot" doesn't necessarily mean "attractive".
>
>> ROTFL!
>
> I hope you got well clear of the furniture before you started rolling
> around on the floor.

No problem.

>
>> Right. You know what Novitsky is thinking regarding Armstrong.
>> There are some effective anti-psychotic meds your shrink can prescribe
>> for you. You won't have to listen to Lance or Novitsky whispering in
>> your ear.
>
> Why the bullshit personal attack on me... wait a minute, I know why.
> Consistency of character and actions.
>
> Novitsky's "book" quote and general attitude toward Barry Bonds were
> reported in the media. Lance gets the same deal except Novitsky is on
> a leash so he doesn't screw the pooch on this one, too.
> --D-y

No. You have no idea what Novitsky thinks about Armstrong. Whether
Novitsky is on a leach or just an intelligent investigator who knows how
to not give needless advantages to Armstrong's counsel, is really
irrelevant; not that you would know which is in fact the situation. Say
hi to Bonds and Novitsky when they whisper in your head tonight.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:14 pm
From: Fred Fredburger

On 12/3/2010 9:19 AM, BLafferty wrote:

> Smear? Good satire, IMO.

Definitely. Who could read this and believe it was intended as honest or
factual? It's just humor. Reading the comments, it's surprising how many
people don't get that.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Moonlighting as a chef or possibly a clown ???
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/67640a4d98f082de?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:18 pm
From: Fred Fredburger

On 12/3/2010 5:32 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-four-at-cayman-training-camp/150766
>
> Or just a douchebag with really bad tastes in clothing?

Thanks for this! I can't get enough douchey JV pictures!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:55 pm
From: Amit Ghosh

On Dec 3, 8:48 am, Fred <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 6:32 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-...
>
> > Or just a douchebag with really bad tastes in clothing?
>
> Those pointy sideburns are the JV-equivalent of the mullett. They MAY
> have been in style at one time, and no matter how much things change,
> by god he's going to wear them till he dies!
>

Would've been cool in 1998. It's a little weird for a team director to
wear loud clothing and shit.

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rec.bicycles.misc - 20 new messages in 5 topics - digest

2010-12-04T00:03:00.001-08:00

rec.bicycles.misc
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc?hl=en

rec.bicycles.misc@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* NEW UNLOCKED Apple iPhone 4G 32GB .....................300£uro - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/17e68079ab0488c1?hl=en
* Bicycle Urban Warfare - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/9dc74b0819431b34?hl=en
* Republicans and others are trying to slow you down - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/d39ef785705ca446?hl=en
* Would you like to have a pet God? - 6 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/ea04fc534443a2fe?hl=en
* The 'Trickle Down' Lie-on - 5 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/5aae17a1f131e41d?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: NEW UNLOCKED Apple iPhone 4G 32GB .....................300£uro
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/17e68079ab0488c1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:28 pm
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bicycle Urban Warfare
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/9dc74b0819431b34?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:03 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 2, 11:22 pm, Father Haskell <fatherhask...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 9:33 pm, "Mike Painter" <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher
> > wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> > > It's really a war for no clear cause --at least they don't have a
> > > clue.
>
> > "They" being the operative word here. Anyone that drives in a college town
> > has had several near misses as the idiots on bicycles cut across lanes with
> > no warnings, ignore stop signs and lights, move into a lane to avoid a grate
> > while ignoring what may be behind them, or just can't stop.
>
> > My last near miss happened when a cyclist on a bike lane with several bikes
> > stopped in front of him ran out into the lane and came within a foot of
> > hitting the side of my car.
>
> > And of course,at night, it is best to wear dark clothes and drive without
> > lights.
>
> 9/10 of all auto-bike accidents are the cyclist's fault. Almost all
> of those
> could have been prevented by the cyclist operating the bike
> predictably --
> by following the same rules motorists do, the same rules everyone
> learned
> in driver's ed.

Obviously cyclists don't have many rules because the system doesn't
care to educate them. To begin they should be issued tickets for stuff
like RIDING ON SIDEWALKS or RIDING WITHOUT LIGHTS at night.

Actually those monkeys have little to do with cyclists, and more to do
with their cousins in circuses.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:11 am
From: "Edward Dolan"

"TibetanMonkey,
[...]
> Obviously cyclists don't have many rules because the system doesn't
> care to educate them. To begin they should be issued tickets for stuff
> like RIDING ON SIDEWALKS or RIDING WITHOUT LIGHTS at night.
>
> Actually those monkeys have little to do with cyclists, and more to do
> with their cousins in circuses.

You've got shit for brains all right. Now what else is new?

Fucking Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:57 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 3, 7:01 am, Dakota <ma...@NOSPAMmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu 12/2/10 22:22, Father Haskell wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 2, 9:33 pm, "Mike Painter"<md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >> His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher
> >> wrote:
> >> <snip>
>
> >>> It's really a war for no clear cause --at least they don't have a
> >>> clue.
>
> >> "They" being the operative word here. Anyone that drives in a college town
> >> has had several near misses as the idiots on bicycles cut across lanes with
> >> no warnings, ignore stop signs and lights, move into a lane to avoid a grate
> >> while ignoring what may be behind them, or just can't stop.
>
> >> My last near miss happened when a cyclist on a bike lane with several bikes
> >> stopped in front of him ran out into the lane and came within a foot of
> >> hitting the side of my car.
>
> >> And of course,at night, it is best to wear dark clothes and drive without
> >> lights.
>
> > 9/10 of all auto-bike accidents are the cyclist's fault. Almost all
> > of those
> > could have been prevented by the cyclist operating the bike
> > predictably --
> > by following the same rules motorists do, the same rules everyone
> > learned
> > in driver's ed.
>
> I'd be interested in seeing a study confirming your 9/10 ratio.
>
> I agree that cyclists should follow the rules of the road making sure to
> make clear their intentions using accepted signals. That, however, is
> not enough. Motorists who collide with cyclists commonly lament that
> they didn't see the cyclist.
>
> Some studies have shown that motorists often fail to 'see' cyclists and
> motorcyclists be cause those vehicles do not pose a threat to the
> motorist. Most drivers are more careful around larger and more
> threatening vehicles.
>
> My personal, admittedly subjective, experience is that I had fewer near
> misses after I began flying an American flag from my motorcycle's sissy
> bar. Near misses were further reduced when I installed a very loud air
> horn on my bike. Both the flag and my occasional use of the horn helped
> to ensure that I was not invisible to other motorists.
>
> Here's what popped up first when I Googled 'motorists don't see cyclists.'
>
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/drivers-at-fault-in-majority-of...
>
> The second Google hit linked to this list of common sense safety tips
> for cyclists.
>
> http://bicyclesafe.com/

That study is truly awesome and I always thought of doing that
experiment myself which now would be redundant. So here it is...

Drivers at fault in majority of cycling accidents
By BikeRadar

Commuters using helmet cams have helped researchers understand the
causes of cycling accidents in Melbourne, Australia

New research from Australia* has shed light on the causes of
collisions and near misses involving cycle commuters. 13 adult
cyclists in Melbourne were given helmet-mounted video cameras and
asked to film 12 hours of commuting each over a four-week period.

In total, 127 hours and 38 minutes of usable footage was obtained. 54
'events' were captured on film – two collisions, six near-collisions
(where rapid evasive action by the cyclist was needed) and 46 other
incidents (where some collision avoidance was required).

The cameras also recorded the road position and behaviour of the
cyclists – including head checks, reactions and manoeuvres. The aim
was to identify risk factors for both cyclists and motorists.

***

You accurately pinpoint the factor that make the driver ignore the
cyclists. Do the elephant looks where he steps?

My solution is to GIVE THE LANE to the cyclists after some
certification and crack down on those people complain about. Cars must
completely leave the lane to avoid accidents and conflict. "Peace in
the jungle."

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 8:16 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

Is everybody here clear of what Urban Warfare means? I know from the
perspective of the driver it looks insignificant, but from the
viewpoint of the cyclist in the middle of it it sounds mighty scary.
Death can come swiftly from everywhere, and the grinding war goes on.

This is a good clip of urban warfare. I can't understand a word they
are saying, but there's no need...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZoy6wRJ-pw&playnext=1&list=PLD74599AE920BDCAF&index=16

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Republicans and others are trying to slow you down
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/d39ef785705ca446?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:07 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 3, 12:57 am, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
> "Forrest Hodge" <f...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:id9e82$9md$2@news.eternal-september.org...> On 12/2/2010 6:03 PM, T m Sherm n _ > wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> Forrest Hodge wrote:
> >>> You are correct, I'm not an environmentalist. I understand some people
> >>> are and they are entitled to their opinions, just as I am entitled to
> >>> mine. If you choose to ride a bike and or partake in public transit,
> >>> that's fine. I prefer the convenience and freedom the automobile offers.
> >>> For reasons I've already explained, in many areas, the bicycle is simply
> >>> not practical as the primary mode of transportation, nor are there any
> >>> public transportation options either. Hence the car the logical choice.
>
> >> If your actions harm others, they are more than just "opinions".
>
> > How is my driving of a car harming others exactly?
>
> Forrest, when you talk to TM, you are talking to the village simpleton. If
> you continue to do it, you will discover that salient fact. He has shit for
> brains and has hardly ever said anything that makes any sense. In short, he
> is a blithering idiot.

You are the best in the circus...

http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/evil-clown-costume.jpg

A clown in old age is twice as sad.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:03 am
From: Opus

On Dec 2, 6:39 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>snip<
> How is my driving of a car harming others exactly?

geez, you want a list?

In the DFW Metroplex 1/3 of all air pollution comes from private motor
vehicle exhaust, a little less than 1/3 comes from other mobile
sources, and a little less than 1/3 comes from stationary industrial
sources. About 2% comes from natural sources that would not be a
problem without the anthropogenic sources. Even as we lower the amount
of pollution in the air we chase a moving target because it has been
discovered the damage caused to people by chronic exposure to
pollution gets worse even as the levels of pollution go down. Even as
smoking rates plummet lung disease of all kinds continues to get worse
as a result of pollution. And that doesn't even include the damage to
water supplies from finding and refining fossil fuels, the damage to
the soil from refining fossil fuels, the damage to groundwater
supplies from runoff from paved roads, the loss of CO2 sinks from
covering soil with paving, the conversion of farmland to housing
because providing parking for our cars takes up so much space that we
have to move into the country to find space to build.

How's that for starters? And keep in mind I'm saying this as a former
member of the SCCA and ISCA, I used to race sports cars and build
customs. I LIKE cars and I'm saying this.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:26 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 3, 12:03 pm, Opus <opusthep...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 6:39 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >snip<
> > How is my driving of a car harming others exactly?
>
> geez, you want a list?
>
> In the DFW Metroplex 1/3 of all air pollution comes from private motor
> vehicle exhaust, a little less than 1/3 comes from other mobile
> sources, and a little less than 1/3 comes from stationary industrial
> sources. About 2% comes from natural sources that would not be a
> problem without the anthropogenic sources. Even as we lower the amount
> of pollution in the air we chase a moving target because it has been
> discovered the damage caused to people by chronic exposure to
> pollution gets worse even as the levels of pollution go down. Even as
> smoking rates plummet lung disease of all kinds continues to get worse
> as a result of pollution. And that doesn't even include the damage to
> water supplies from finding and refining fossil fuels, the damage to
> the soil from refining fossil fuels, the damage to groundwater
> supplies from runoff from paved roads, the loss of CO2 sinks from
> covering soil with paving, the conversion of farmland to housing
> because providing parking for our cars takes up so much space that we
> have to move into the country to find space to build.
>
> How's that for starters? And keep in mind I'm saying this as a former
> member of the SCCA and ISCA, I used to race sports cars and build
> customs. I LIKE cars and I'm saying this.

The late Paul Newman was into both RACING CARS and ENVIRONMENTALISM...
What they are basically proposing --his daughter too-- is that we use
more alternative transportation --public transportation or bicycles--
and leave the driving for Sundays or something.

I say this much, BUY LOCALLY BIKE LOCALLY to build COMMUNITY --not
Gated Community. ;)

http://www.zazzle.com/community_tshirt-235961473793440879

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:25 pm
From: Forrest Hodge

On 12/2/2010 10:23 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average
backyard philosopher wrote:
> On Dec 1, 10:29 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12/1/2010 5:03 PM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average
>>
>>
>>
>> backyard philosopher wrote:
>>> On Dec 1, 4:53 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/1/2010 7:28 AM, Opus wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 30, 8:02 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> snip<
>>>>>>>>>> My 400 HP sport/muscle car isn't envious of a folding bicycle.
>>
>>>>>>>>> Well, some day I invite to a Triathlon where one of the events is to
>>>>>>>>> take the vehicle in the subway.
>>
>>>>>>>> No subways where I live, and even there were, I don't care for public
>>>>>>>> transportation. I prefer not being at the mercy of bus/subway schedule.
>>
>>>>>>> Good, and we're spending a trillion dollars to make sure that the oil
>>>>>>> necessary for shitheads like you remains available.
>>
>>>>>> Shitheads like me? Care to elaborate or is your argument simply limited
>>>>>> to name calling?
>>
>>>>> People that drive vehicles with a decimal order of magnitude more
>>>>> power than they need to move their butts with fossil fuels, because
>>>>> they haven't learned to use public transportation and refuse to ride a
>>>>> bicycle to move their butts using their butts. Is that elaborate
>>>>> enough for you?
>>
>>>>> And just to be precise, the war in Iraq cost a billion dollars a DAY
>>>>> for 6 years, do the math. That doesn't even begin to tackle the cost
>>>>> of the war in Afghanistan, and both of those wars were "off-budget"
>>>>> items during the Bush administration, roughly $3 trillion added to the
>>>>> deficit that wasn't even counted until 2008.
>>
>>>> Because public transportation is everywhere, right. Where I live there
>>>> are no buses, no subways, no bike lanes. It would suicidal and
>>>> inefficient time-wise to bike to work. So consequently I drive
>>>> everywhere, and I might as well enjoy myself when I do it. If you really
>>>> want to get into semantics, it could be considered decedent and
>>>> unnecessary to ride a bike with 20 in or larger wheels or more than one
>>>> gear, because everyone should be able to peddle a fixed gear bike up a
>>>> steep hill and if you can't you're a "shithead".
>>
>>> Hey, there are no sidewalks either in most suburbs made for the SUV
>>> so... what do we do, drive an SUV?
>>
>>> Now one question, HOW CAN YOU ENJOY DRIVING A SPORTS CAR IN AMERICA?
>>> So many vigilantes blocking the road and so much predation in speeding
>>> tickets that you feel like driving is for dummies.
>>
>>> I drive a car for dummies, some older Lexus....
>>
>>> (But Opus is right in pointing that out: the bicycle is the best
>>> choice whenever possible)
>>
>> If you live in suburbs and choose to ride a bike, that's your decision.
>> You can move to the city and live in a more bike friendly place. There
>> are trade offs to living an any given area.
>
> The city is NOT a more bike friendly place. In the city you find the
> monkeys riding on sidewalks... You call that friendly?
>
>>
>> How can I drive driving a sports car? Easy, back country roads and a
>> police force that concerns itself more with keeping violent offenders
>> off the streets more so that it does with the occasional hooning.
>
> Sorry, you can have a Mazda Miata to have fun and save a lot of gas.

"The city is NOT a more bike friendly place. In the city you find the
monkeys riding on sidewalks... You call that friendly?"

I would think that with the much lower prevailing speeds and far more
traffic lights and such that riding the in the city would lend itself to
bike riding better. The difference in speeds between cars and bikes
isn't as much, and you usually can't go more than a 1/4 mile without
hitting red light.

"Sorry, you can have a Mazda Miata to have fun and save a lot of gas."

I also have 1974 Triumph TR6, a proper roadster. The Miata is just a
knock off, sure it's a nice car to drive, but it has none of the soul
and personality of the real deal. For what it's worth, the TR6 gets
about the same mileage as the 400 HP Mustang. Naturally, given the
questionable reliability of the Triumph, it's only driven in the spring
and summer, never at night, and never more than 20 miles or so from
home. It's more of a hobby than a car if I'm honest.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Would you like to have a pet God?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/ea04fc534443a2fe?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:53 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

(Hey, we can not always be serious and talk about monkeys and bananas.
This time is play time. It's like God throws a ball at you and you
catch it... This is as well a "low ball" for a certain Ed)

Notice God is dog spelled backwards, and the proposition starts to
make sense to you.

A pet God will allow to be a substitute of God that you can actually
relate to and talk to, even if he only barks back at you.

In a reversal of roles, the pet God will be loyal to you, so you know
how important that is in the Kingdom of the Lord. You are to God what
the pet God to you, so you'll feel like drooling at Heaven.

In other words, having a pet God prepares for the real thing. Now the
question is chihuahua or german shepherd?

----------------------------------------------------------------

http://webspawner.com/users/BANANAREVOLUTION

http://webspawner.com/users/FARTFORPEACE (not fart at peace)

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:07 am
From: "Edward Dolan"

"His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"
<comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a76e2c8e-7325-43e0-b696-f5f57942ead4@32g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> (Hey, we can not always be serious and talk about monkeys and bananas.
> This time is play time. It's like God throws a ball at you and you
> catch it... This is as well a "low ball" for a certain Ed)
>
> Notice God is dog spelled backwards, and the proposition starts to
> make sense to you.
>
> A pet God will allow to be a substitute of God that you can actually
> relate to and talk to, even if he only barks back at you.
>
> In a reversal of roles, the pet God will be loyal to you, so you know
> how important that is in the Kingdom of the Lord. You are to God what
> the pet God to you, so you'll feel like drooling at Heaven.
>
> In other words, having a pet God prepares for the real thing. Now the
> question is chihuahua or german shepherd?

TM is a poor crazy bastard who just posts on his one favorite subject -
hatred of motor vehicles because they interfere with his use of the roads.
His other favorite subject is attacking Christianity. If you respond to this
poor crazy bastard, then you are a poor crazy bastard too.

He likes to reference monkeys and other wild animals normally found only in
zoos because he is most likely a wild beast himself. I think he fornicates
with monkeys, but I can't prove it.

TM should confine himself to just one thread instead of proliferating them
like a poor crazy bastard. He is insane of course. I liken him to the
village idiot of olden times. The difference these days is that no one any
longer recognizes the village idiot because idiocy has become so widespread.

But I will be here to remind one and all of what a poor crazy bastard TM is.
It is a mark of My Greatness that I can still recognize the village idiot
even if the rest of you can't.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:08 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 3, 3:33 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Who is more sovereign, the one who pisses on the floor or the one who
> has to clean it up?

Well, many owners simply don't pickup after their dogs and I have
every reason to believe 80% of them are Christian.

That's very typical of the lack of communitarian spirit we live under
today, the "last days" according to the Christians.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:44 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

"His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"
<comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ba3a4100-9218-42ae-a389-ce2bd88ba6af@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 3, 3:33 pm, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Who is more sovereign, the one who pisses on the floor or the one who
>> has to clean it up?
>
> Well, many owners simply don't pickup after their dogs and after every
> reason to believe 80% of them are Christian.
>
> That's very typical of the lack of communitarian spirit we live under
> today, the "last days" according to the Christians.

He likes to reference monkeys and other wild animals normally found only in
zoos because he is most likely a wild beast himself. I think he fornicates
with monkeys, but I can't prove it.

But I will be here to remind one and all of what a poor crazy bastard TM is.
It is a mark of My Greatness that I can still recognize the village idiot
even if the rest of you can't.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:12 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

(I don't think so)

On Dec 3, 9:08 pm, livvy <mmrward1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> you really need to find something to do. You hate everything.....get
> it. You're really reaching here....actually stretching. You care
> about neither religion, nor pets. We get it. And yet you can't
> stop yapping. Find something.

One thing the Christians definitely don't have is a sense of humor.

Hey, I read something that perhaps will make you laugh:

SIGN AT CHURCH:

"THOSE CAUGHT PARKING HERE WILL BE CHARGED FOR TRESPASSING AND WILL BE
BAPTIZED"

No way!!!!!!!

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:43 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

"His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"
<comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9e1a3ee6-eef2-44f2-81c2-9854935374eb@35g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> (I don't think so)
>
> On Dec 3, 9:08 pm, livvy <mmrward1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> you really need to find something to do. You hate everything.....get
>> it. You're really reaching here....actually stretching. You care
>> about neither religion, nor pets. We get it. And yet you can't
>> stop yapping. Find something.
>
> One thing the Christians definitely don't have is a sense of humor.
>
> Hey, I read something that perhaps will make you laugh:
>
> SIGN AT CHURCH:
>
> "THOSE CAUGHT PARKING HERE WILL BE CHARGED FOR TRESPASSING AND WILL BE
> BAPTIZED"
>
> No way!!!!!!!

You've got shit for brains all right. Now what else is new?

Fucking Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The 'Trickle Down' Lie-on
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/5aae17a1f131e41d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:34 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 2, 5:18 pm, "Mike Painter" <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I once had someone explain the trickle down economy in a way that made
> perfect sense.
>
> It of course ignored two facts.
> 1.Trickles tend to be constant so the rich could keep on getting richer.
> 2. Nobody likes a trickle so every effort is made to plug the leak.

Exactly right. But let me give you an example as owner of small pets --
birds and mice-- which, of course, can't feed themselves.

I'm the master here, and this theory says that instead of me having
the obligation to feed them, the scraps from my table will eventually
fall to the floor where they'll pick it after some struggle among
themselves.

It's all about comfort, but in real life I still have to get my ass
out the chair and consciously provide them with shelter, food, water --
and exercise.

The last part is usually forgotten by our masters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Wisdom of the Jungle proves Trickle Down economics wrong--and
sneaky"

THE REVOLUTION IS ABOUT SOLUTIONS

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote1

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:34 am
From: Charmin

On Dec 3, 10:34 am, "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average
backyard philosopher" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 5:18 pm, "Mike Painter" <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > I once had someone explain the trickle down economy in a way that made
> > perfect sense.
>
> > It of course ignored two facts.
> > 1.Trickles tend to be constant so the rich could keep on getting richer.
> > 2. Nobody likes a trickle so every effort is made to plug the leak.
>
> Exactly right. But let me give you an example as owner of small pets --
> birds and mice-- which, of course, can't feed themselves.
>
> I'm the master here, and this theory says that instead of me having
> the obligation to feed them, the scraps from my table will eventually
> fall to the floor where they'll pick it after some struggle among
> themselves.
>
> It's all about comfort, but in real life I still have to get my ass
> out the chair and consciously provide them with shelter, food, water --
> and exercise.
>
But it's your mom who is really providing for them.
She's providing you that car and the basement you live in too.
That big GF of yours ain't letting many scraps hit the floor either.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 11:20 am
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 3, 1:34 pm, Charmin <char...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 10:34 am, "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average
>
> backyard philosopher" <nolionnoprob...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 2, 5:18 pm, "Mike Painter" <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > I once had someone explain the trickle down economy in a way that made
> > > perfect sense.
>
> > > It of course ignored two facts.
> > > 1.Trickles tend to be constant so the rich could keep on getting richer.
> > > 2. Nobody likes a trickle so every effort is made to plug the leak.
>
> > Exactly right. But let me give you an example as owner of small pets --
> > birds and mice-- which, of course, can't feed themselves.
>
> > I'm the master here, and this theory says that instead of me having
> > the obligation to feed them, the scraps from my table will eventually
> > fall to the floor where they'll pick it after some struggle among
> > themselves.
>
> > It's all about comfort, but in real life I still have to get my ass
> > out the chair and consciously provide them with shelter, food, water --
> > and exercise.
>
> But it's your mom who is really providing for them.
> She's providing you that car and the basement you live in too.
> That big GF of yours ain't letting many scraps hit the floor either.

I just want peanuts and a bicycle so she doesn't have to pay for gas.

You know what, just now we are driving 4-5 miles because we dare not
ride on those roads. And once that car goes down, what?

Life in the cage, huh? I hope you know a car is known as a cage. ;)

"You are sick of all cages, the home and the car, and decided to take
some cool air on your bike. Don't forget your bananas!"

http://www.zazzle.com/out_of_my_cage_tshirt-235594472819468340

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:45 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

"His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"
<nolionnoproblem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ad8404d-3fdc-45ca-8eb3-e438fa295ea0@u25g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 2, 5:18 pm, "Mike Painter" <md.pain...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I once had someone explain the trickle down economy in a way that made
>> perfect sense.
>>
>> It of course ignored two facts.
>> 1.Trickles tend to be constant so the rich could keep on getting richer.
>> 2. Nobody likes a trickle so every effort is made to plug the leak.
>
> Exactly right. But let me give you an example as owner of small pets --
> birds and mice-- which, of course, can't feed themselves.
>
> I'm the master here, and this theory says that instead of me having
> the obligation to feed them, the scraps from my table will eventually
> fall to the floor where they'll pick it after some struggle among
> themselves.
>
> It's all about comfort, but in real life I still have to get my ass
> out the chair and consciously provide them with shelter, food, water --
> and exercise.
>
> The last part is usually forgotten by our masters.

He likes to reference monkeys and other wild animals normally found only in
zoos because he is most likely a wild beast himself. I think he fornicates
with monkeys, but I can't prove it.

But I will be here to remind one and all of what a poor crazy bastard TM is.
It is a mark of My Greatness that I can still recognize the village idiot
even if the rest of you can't.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:49 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

TibetanMonkey,
[...]
> One thing the Christians definitely don't have is a sense of humor.
>
> Hey, I read something that perhaps will make you laugh:
>
> SIGN AT CHURCH:
>
> "THOSE CAUGHT PARKING HERE WILL BE CHARGED FOR TRESPASSING AND WILL BE
> BAPTIZED"
>
> No way!!!!!!!

The point of any newsgroup is to COMMUNICATE something that others can
respond to. You never do that. I think it is because you are a poor crazy
bastard and, frankly, the sooner some motorist puts you out of your misery,
the better. Fuck you, you god damn dumb stupid asshole!

Fucking Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

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rec.bicycles.tech - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

2010-12-03T19:03:00.000-08:00

rec.bicycles.tech
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech?hl=en

rec.bicycles.tech@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:50 pm
From: "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"

On Dec 3, 5:30 am, Anton Success <snd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aside from vbrakes is there any difference between cross and road
> bikes?
>
> I need to find a reason to get a roadbike after having switched to a
> vbrake based flatbarred cross
> that takes up to about 700x38 tires. I mean, there've got to be some
> advantages to offset the inferior brakes,
> limited rubber choices for a mainstream user. What are they?

Cyclocross bikes use cantilever brakes, not V-brakes. Cyclocross
bikes have road shifters, STI, Ergo, or whatever SRAM call theirs.
These levers work very poorly with V-brakes. Mountain bike levers
work with V-brakes. The levers pull different amounts of cable.
Adaptors are sold which allow road bike levers to work with V-brakes.
Others can comment on whether they work or not and how much trouble
they are.

Inferior brakes? Road bikes safely make it down mountains at 60+ mph
with those supposedly inferior sidepull brakes. No cyclocross bike
requires anything approaching that for braking.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:04 pm
From: Dan O

On Dec 3, 3:30 am, Anton Success <snd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Aside from vbrakes is there any difference between cross and road
> bikes?
>
> I need to find a reason to get a roadbike after having switched to a
> vbrake based flatbarred cross
> that takes up to about 700x38 tires. I mean, there've got to be some
> advantages to offset the inferior brakes,
> limited rubber choices for a mainstream user. What are they?

Here's the cool thing about anything except a "road bike": You can
ride most any of them on the road, too. Ride Bike! :-)

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:07 pm
From: Dan O

On Dec 3, 1:50 pm, "russellseat...@yahoo.com"
<russellseat...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 5:30 am, Anton Success <snd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Aside from vbrakes is there any difference between cross and road
> > bikes?
>
> > I need to find a reason to get a roadbike after having switched to a
> > vbrake based flatbarred cross
> > that takes up to about 700x38 tires. I mean, there've got to be some
> > advantages to offset the inferior brakes,
> > limited rubber choices for a mainstream user. What are they?
>
> Cyclocross bikes use cantilever brakes, not V-brakes. Cyclocross
> bikes have road shifters, STI, Ergo, or whatever SRAM call theirs.
> These levers work very poorly with V-brakes. Mountain bike levers
> work with V-brakes. The levers pull different amounts of cable.
> Adaptors are sold which allow road bike levers to work with V-brakes.
> Others can comment on whether they work or not and how much trouble
> they are.

I have it something like the other way around (spngy) on my wheeljie
bike (I didn't set it up that way myself, and besides...

>
> Inferior brakes? Road bikes safely make it down mountains at 60+ mph
> with those supposedly inferior sidepull brakes. No cyclocross bike
> requires anything approaching that for braking.

I'm pretty sure I could lock up both wheels even with the spongy
setup. I stood the bike on its nose twice in one day recently.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:56 pm
From: thirty-six

On Dec 3, 5:46 pm, "Rik O'Shea" <rikos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?
>
> Thanks & regards

The axle positioning screws may be required if you wish to fine tune
the shifting quality of a single pivot derailleur such as an old
Campag'. If you use a dual pivot derailleur then there is no point
to axle adjustment, you're stuck with the shifting speed you're
given. Single pivot advantage is very strong with single chainring or
a half-step setup. The wider the spacing between chainrings the more
obvious the choice goes to the modern style dual pivot.

This in no way affect whether you choose to salt your nuts vertically
or otherwise, but jam donuts are best with cream, don't eat the
divots, there's cheese 'n' crackers in the clubhouse. Use the wrong
nuts and you break your teeth.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:10 pm
From: Dan O

On Dec 2, 11:48 am, fiultra5 <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
> at all ...

Whee! ;-)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:31 pm
From: AMuzi

> fiultra5 <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
>> at all ...

Dan O wrote:
> Whee! ;-)

Well, they own the 'evil' brand:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/334x324

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Do you ride a steel bike on salted roads?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/36840834ed633aeb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:23 pm
From: Dan O

On Nov 29, 8:44 am, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Do you ride your steel bike on gritted roads? With what effects from
> the salt?
>

They just dump sand and gravel ("grit") on the roads here - no salt to
speak of. I just noticed yesterday, tnough, when a new chain (<100
miles) got left in the garage overnight wet, there was rust on rollers
(from the sprockets, I guess). I got rained on steadily for ~60 miles
Tuesday, and there is much gritty earth on the roads from when it
froze a while back.

The frame looks fine so far after almost a couple of years now, and
the XT hubs are well sealed. I have another bottom bracket for it,
but have felt no reason to install it yet.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:38 pm
From: thirty-six

On Dec 3, 9:44 pm, thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 9:00 pm, fiultra5 <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 3, 6:58 pm, Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On 03/12/2010 17:55, fiultra5 wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > >> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.
>
> > > > How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
> > > > of course.
>
> > > First snow last year landed, melted to slush, refroze into ice. I was ok
> > > going uphill, with a bit of rear wheel slipping, but as I approached the
> > > final right hand turn the front wheel went away and I went down hard.
>
> > > Lay in the snow for over an hour waiting for an ambulance to travel ten
> > > miles. Lots of nice people in the town I live in. Watching kids on BMXs
> > > going along that same bit of road with no grief at all :-( Most amusing
> > > bit was getting past the jackknifed lorry - transferred between two
> > > ambulances. Nicest bit was the shot of morphine.
>
> > > Lessons learned - glassy ice is horrible stuff, especially with
> > > skinnyish slicks. If the back wheel is slipping, take the warning to get
> > > off and walk.
>
> > > This year it's not done that - the snow hasn't turned to glass, so the
> > > cyclocross tyres do a marvellous job, and aren't too bad on the tarmac
> > > either. But I do keep checking the shiny stuff on the road is damp, not ice.
>
> > Bloody hell. That's a 'there but for the grace of God go I story';
> > could happen to anyone. I hope you're fully recovered. -- Andre Jute
>
> Not entirely true, the fatter your backside the less likely a
> fracture, but you have to weigh that up against your age and
> osteopororsis. I came off enough times in my younger days to know
> that falls on ice may superficially cause less damage but know from
> the bruising that follows that some severe impacts need to be
> absorbed, of which today present me too great a risk due to
> osteoporosis. So unless you know that your bones are in excellent
> health from a DEXA scan, or can presume they are because you are under
> 35, then be prepared for a fractured hip.

or use studded tyres

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:45 pm
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 1:58 PM, Clive George wrote:
> On 03/12/2010 17:55, fiultra5 wrote:
>> On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.
>>
>> How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
>> of course.
>
> First snow last year landed, melted to slush, refroze into ice. I was ok
> going uphill, with a bit of rear wheel slipping, but as I approached the
> final right hand turn the front wheel went away and I went down hard.
>
> Lay in the snow for over an hour waiting for an ambulance to travel ten
> miles. Lots of nice people in the town I live in. Watching kids on BMXs
> going along that same bit of road with no grief at all :-( Most amusing
> bit was getting past the jackknifed lorry - transferred between two
> ambulances. Nicest bit was the shot of morphine.
>
> Lessons learned - glassy ice is horrible stuff, especially with
> skinnyish slicks. If the back wheel is slipping, take the warning to get
> off and walk.
>
> This year it's not done that - the snow hasn't turned to glass, so the
> cyclocross tyres do a marvellous job, and aren't too bad on the tarmac
> either. But I do keep checking the shiny stuff on the road is damp, not
> ice.

Sorry about your crash.

I wouldn't be too hard on yourself about it, "black ice" is tricky
stuff. It is impossible to distinguish it from a wet road, and you can
get patches of it when the conditions are just right. Normally, there's
enough residual grit on the road all winter to prevent slick patches,
but sometimes, especially after a freeze follows a rainy spell, roads
can get washed clean and form glassy sections. I used to try to predict
it and only swap to my wheels with studs then, but I found I couldn't do
that reliably, so now I just ride with them all winter. It doesn't take
a very big patch to break your front wheel free, especially in a turn,
and recovery is all but impossible.

Where studs really pay their way is on the local cycle paths, which are
often plowed, but never gritted. Snow melts in the noon sunshine then
freezes overnight -- very treacherous.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:27 pm
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">

On 12/3/2010 3:44 PM, thirty-six aka Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
> On Dec 3, 9:00 pm, fiultra5<fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 3, 6:58 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 03/12/2010 17:55, fiultra5 wrote:
>>
>>>> On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.
>>
>>>> How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
>>>> of course.
>>
>>> First snow last year landed, melted to slush, refroze into ice. I was ok
>>> going uphill, with a bit of rear wheel slipping, but as I approached the
>>> final right hand turn the front wheel went away and I went down hard.
>>
>>> Lay in the snow for over an hour waiting for an ambulance to travel ten
>>> miles. Lots of nice people in the town I live in. Watching kids on BMXs
>>> going along that same bit of road with no grief at all :-( Most amusing
>>> bit was getting past the jackknifed lorry - transferred between two
>>> ambulances. Nicest bit was the shot of morphine.
>>
>>> Lessons learned - glassy ice is horrible stuff, especially with
>>> skinnyish slicks. If the back wheel is slipping, take the warning to get
>>> off and walk.
>>
>>> This year it's not done that - the snow hasn't turned to glass, so the
>>> cyclocross tyres do a marvellous job, and aren't too bad on the tarmac
>>> either. But I do keep checking the shiny stuff on the road is damp, not ice.
>>
>> Bloody hell. That's a 'there but for the grace of God go I story';
>> could happen to anyone. I hope you're fully recovered. -- Andre Jute
>
> Not entirely true, the fatter your backside the less likely a
> fracture, but you have to weigh that up against your age and
> osteopororsis. I came off enough times in my younger days to know
> that falls on ice may superficially cause less damage but know from
> the bruising that follows that some severe impacts need to be
> absorbed, of which today present me too great a risk due to
> osteoporosis. So unless you know that your bones are in excellent
> health from a DEXA scan, or can presume they are because you are under
> 35, then be prepared for a fractured hip.

The last time I hit an ice patch and went down I was fine. Of course, I
only had about 25-cm to fall.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:34 pm
From: Dan O

On Dec 2, 9:48 pm, Joy Beeson <jbee...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:42:47 -0500, Peter Cole
>
> <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > I don't typically carry water bottles at all except on very long rides
> > out in the boonies. I have yet to suffer the dire predictions of
> > dehydration, hot or cold.
>
> I used to think carrying bottles was silly -- after all, if you've
> been riding long enough to get thirsty, it's time for a rest!
>
> When I could ride farther than around the parking lot, drinking while
> I rode started making more sense. It became a fixed habit after a
> dramatic incident:
>
> One day I'd ridden from New Salem to downtown Albany, New York. About
> halfway home, it became apparent that it was a tad early in the spring
> for such a long expedition, and it was only by extreme effort that I
> managed to make it to the next pay phone. This was at a little
> shopping center only five miles from home -- it was embarrassing to
> call for a ride that close, but I just couldn't go on. In fact, I
> couldn't even make the call without resting a while first.
>
> There was an outside faucet, so I filled my water bottles, just to
> have something to do while waiting to get intelligent enough to put a
> quarter into a slot. Then I sat down and stared blankly at the
> adjacent field. After a while I noticed that both water bottles were
> empty -- so I got up, filled them again, and rode home.
>
> I hadn't been exhausted at all. I had been dehydrated.
>

Yesterday I left work in the afternoon with clear sunshine, light
wind, and ~42 degrees F. I took off without warming up a good while,
got almost 20 miles in a little over an hour, and my gut started
telling me to pull over, sit down, and eat a mojo bar. But it was
cold, so I wanted to keep pedaling. But it got me to slow down a
little, and then I felt like stopping, but couldn't find a good place,
and felt a bit better from having slacked off for a few, so resumed
pedaling with about 8 miles to go.

But the sun had just gone down, and I had lost what core temp I had
been running when I slowed down, and as the sun went down the
temperature dropped and my fingers started screaming at me. I got
home without bonking, though, collapsed on the kitchen floor for a
few, then eventually warmed up a few hours later.

Here's the killer: I had a thick sweater and warmer gloves in my
bags. Dang! I should've stopped and eaten that mojo bar and put on
some of that stuff for the last 8 miles.

I had plenty of water though - always carry two. Have never gone dry
- even when rinsing out wounds :-) It seems sometimes as though I
have flushed too much other stuff out of my system drinking water to
where I get woozy from that - hence the mojo bar (I like the ones with
raisins :-).

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:47 pm
From: Dan O

On Dec 3, 2:34 pm, Dan O <danover...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 9:48 pm, Joy Beeson <jbee...@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:42:47 -0500, Peter Cole
>
> > <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > I don't typically carry water bottles at all except on very long rides
> > > out in the boonies. I have yet to suffer the dire predictions of
> > > dehydration, hot or cold.
>
> > I used to think carrying bottles was silly -- after all, if you've
> > been riding long enough to get thirsty, it's time for a rest!
>
> > When I could ride farther than around the parking lot, drinking while
> > I rode started making more sense. It became a fixed habit after a
> > dramatic incident:
>
> > One day I'd ridden from New Salem to downtown Albany, New York. About
> > halfway home, it became apparent that it was a tad early in the spring
> > for such a long expedition, and it was only by extreme effort that I
> > managed to make it to the next pay phone. This was at a little
> > shopping center only five miles from home -- it was embarrassing to
> > call for a ride that close, but I just couldn't go on. In fact, I
> > couldn't even make the call without resting a while first.
>
> > There was an outside faucet, so I filled my water bottles, just to
> > have something to do while waiting to get intelligent enough to put a
> > quarter into a slot. Then I sat down and stared blankly at the
> > adjacent field. After a while I noticed that both water bottles were
> > empty -- so I got up, filled them again, and rode home.
>
> > I hadn't been exhausted at all. I had been dehydrated.
>
> Yesterday I left work in the afternoon with clear sunshine, light
> wind, and ~42 degrees F. I took off without warming up a good while,
> got almost 20 miles in a little over an hour, and my gut started
> telling me to pull over, sit down, and eat a mojo bar. But it was
> cold, so I wanted to keep pedaling. But it got me to slow down a
> little, and then I felt like stopping, but couldn't find a good place,
> and felt a bit better from having slacked off for a few, so resumed
> pedaling with about 8 miles to go.
>
> But the sun had just gone down, and I had lost what core temp I had
> been running when I slowed down, and as the sun went down the
> temperature dropped and my fingers started screaming at me. I got
> home without bonking, though, collapsed on the kitchen floor for a
> few, then eventually warmed up a few hours later.
>

All those Camel 99's aren't helping, either :-(

<snip>

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:51 pm
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 8:55 AM, T�m Sherm�n� �_� > wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 6:47 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
>> On 12/3/2010 12:48 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:42:47 -0500, Peter Cole
>>> <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't typically carry water bottles at all except on very long rides
>>>> out in the boonies. I have yet to suffer the dire predictions of
>>>> dehydration, hot or cold.
>>>
>>> I used to think carrying bottles was silly -- after all, if you've
>>> been riding long enough to get thirsty, it's time for a rest!
>>>
>>> When I could ride farther than around the parking lot, drinking while
>>> I rode started making more sense. It became a fixed habit after a
>>> dramatic incident:
>>>
>>> One day I'd ridden from New Salem to downtown Albany, New York. About
>>> halfway home, it became apparent that it was a tad early in the spring
>>> for such a long expedition, and it was only by extreme effort that I
>>> managed to make it to the next pay phone. This was at a little
>>> shopping center only five miles from home -- it was embarrassing to
>>> call for a ride that close, but I just couldn't go on. In fact, I
>>> couldn't even make the call without resting a while first.
>>>
>>> There was an outside faucet, so I filled my water bottles, just to
>>> have something to do while waiting to get intelligent enough to put a
>>> quarter into a slot. Then I sat down and stared blankly at the
>>> adjacent field. After a while I noticed that both water bottles were
>>> empty -- so I got up, filled them again, and rode home.
>>>
>>> I hadn't been exhausted at all. I had been dehydrated.
>>>
>>
>> I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride. I've
>> done a lot of distance cycling (organized brevets) in the heat of a New
>> England summer, and, by necessity, developed ways of detecting
>> dehydration. It takes a while to develop, usually much longer than that.
>> It is generally obvious, since you're thirsty, too. The few times I have
>> been dehydrated and not thirsty were when I was doing rides in the heat
>> in the 12-24 hr range and had lost so much salt apparently it screwed up
>> my sense of thirst.
>
> Hyponatremia is miserable: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia>.
>

Yes, and very dangerous. It's also sometimes hard to distinguish from
dehydration since it shares many of the symptoms, which makes it doubly
dangerous, because if mistaken, the results can be fatal.

It took me many long distance rides to realize that in hot weather and
over 12 hours or so, I lost enough salt to cause me to feel pretty bad.
Funny thing is I wouldn't start craving salt until the day after. Now I
take salt capsules under those conditions.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:58 pm
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 9:57 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Peter Cole:
>> I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride.
>
> I'm another one that never carried water.
>
> But somewhere along the line, I discovered that drinking during a
> ride longer than about 1.5 yours made the diff between getting
> home comfortably, and spending the last part of the ride in a
> state of fatigue.
>
> Dunno if that qualifies as dehydration, but I can replicated it
> at will.

Yes, for me, in hot weather, there also seems to be a threshold at
around 2 hours of hard riding where I need to drink or start getting
uncomfortably thirsty. Even on some of our very rural rides it's
uncommon to find conveniences that far apart. On long hot rides I mostly
carry bottles so I don't have to chug a couple of liters at every stop,
which can make me queasy.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:43 pm
From: "MikeWhy"

"Peter Cole" <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:idc039$9ph$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 12/3/2010 9:57 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per Peter Cole:
>>> I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride.
>>
>> I'm another one that never carried water.
>>
>> But somewhere along the line, I discovered that drinking during a
>> ride longer than about 1.5 yours made the diff between getting
>> home comfortably, and spending the last part of the ride in a
>> state of fatigue.
>>
>> Dunno if that qualifies as dehydration, but I can replicated it
>> at will.
>
> Yes, for me, in hot weather, there also seems to be a threshold at around
> 2 hours of hard riding where I need to drink or start getting
> uncomfortably thirsty. Even on some of our very rural rides it's uncommon
> to find conveniences that far apart. On long hot rides I mostly carry
> bottles so I don't have to chug a couple of liters at every stop, which
> can make me queasy.

For months and months, it didn't occur to me I was bonking early from not
eating enough. It always felt like a muscle strain, usually near the knee,
sometimes in front, and just as often right behind the knee. It didn't
matter if I rode hard or soft, they were good for 3 hours, tops. Eating
regularly solved it completely and immediately. Most of one gel serving
every half hour is about right. I carry two small flasks that hold 5
servings each. For longer trips, I carry a few rice balls (sticky rice or
plain steamed white rice, scrambled eggs, maybe some breakfast sausage, and
a splash of maple syrup) wrapped in foil to supplement the gel. Gel is under
$1 per serving in bulk, making it cheaper than gasoline for the distance
travelled. Drinking and staying hydrated is pretty much automatic with my
eating schedule. Gatorade precludes worrying about serum electrolyte levels.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:15 pm
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per MikeWhy:
>Gel is under
>$1 per serving in bulk

A loooong time ago, when I used to ride from Philly down to the
Jersey shore every Sunday (88 miles in < 4 hours IIRC).... I
found that grapes worked for me.

Start to feel the energy level dropping, pop a big old grape,
wait a few minutes and "Yeeeeeeee Haaaaa"... the surge of energy
was that strong.
--
PeteCresswell

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:34 pm
From: Jobst Brandt

Pete Cresswell wrote:

>> Gel is under $1 per serving in bulk

> A loooong time ago, when I used to ride from Philly down to the
> Jersey shore every Sunday (88 miles in <4 hours IIRC)... I found
> that grapes worked for me.

> Start to feel the energy level dropping, pop a big old grape, wait a
> few minutes and "Yee Haa"... the surge of energy was that strong.

A sweet soda pop will give you more sugar in a more convenient form,
with caffeine. It works the same "wonders". The other day on a long
ride I got a Latte and added lots of sugar to return to more power
than I had had for many miles.
--
Jobst Brandt

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT Chainsaw Use
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/098895388786dab6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:24 pm
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">

On 12/3/2010 12:44 AM, James Steward wrote:
> [...]
> I've not used a chainsaw for as many hours as I've cycled, strangely,
> and I'm always very careful with it, so I've not had an accident using
> it.
>
> Thankfully chainsaws danger is easier to limit with careful use.[...]

That what you would think! <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg>

--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:10 pm
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per Duane H�bert:
>
>You get used to it. The francophones here have bumper stickers
>saying "On est a Quebec. Pour quoi faire l'une pour francais?"
>(among other things)

When we were vacationing on Lake Memphremagot some years back, we
drove into Montreal.

Somebody had actually climbed up on all the overhead signs on the
freeway (the huge green ones that seem about 100 feet in the air)
and crudely spray-painted out the English and painted in the
French.

Guy in the next cabin was a mid-level manager for the Canadian
Pacific Railroad. His observation was that it was a disservice
to kids to raise them speaking only French in Quebec. They get
jobs in a company like CP, rise to a certain level, and never go
any further bc they cannot function outside of the province.
--
PeteCresswell

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Holy Air Bag Batman ~ Air Bag Helmet!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/950cef999fb807f1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:54 pm
From: TheCoz

Now see where these Helmet threads have led us to? I don't see these
as a summer item.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/an-air-bag-for-bicyclists-23304494

Coz

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:56 pm
From: AMuzi

TheCoz wrote:
> Now see where these Helmet threads have led us to? I don't see these
> as a summer item.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/an-air-bag-for-bicyclists-23304494

Oh, but if just one child is saved...!

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:06 pm
From: SMS

On 12/3/2010 4:54 PM, TheCoz wrote:
> Now see where these Helmet threads have led us to? I don't see these
> as a summer item.
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/an-air-bag-for-bicyclists-23304494
>
> Coz

Old news. I posted this on October 23rd. It's an interesting idea. I
don't think it'll be any worse in the summer than wearing a regular
bicycle helmet.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:22 pm
From: Dan O

On Dec 3, 5:06 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 4:54 PM, TheCoz wrote:
>
> > Now see where these Helmet threads have led us to? I don't see these
> > as a summer item.
>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/an-air-bag-for-bicyclist...
>
> > Coz
>
> Old news. I posted this on October 23rd. It's an interesting idea. I
> don't think it'll be any worse in the summer than wearing a regular
> bicycle helmet.

Goofier, though.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:12 pm
From: TheCoz

On Dec 3, 7:06 pm, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 4:54 PM, TheCoz wrote:
>
> > Now see where these Helmet threads have led us to? I don't see these
> > as a summer item.
>
> >http://news.yahoo.com/video/science-15749654/an-air-bag-for-bicyclist...
>
> > Coz
>
> Old news. I posted this on October 23rd. It's an interesting idea. I
> don't think it'll be any worse in the summer than wearing a regular
> bicycle helmet.

I wouldn't wear a wool scarf in the 100 degree summer heat. That's
what it looks like to me.
Coz

==============================================================================
TOPIC: paypal payment NBA ALL adidas swingman jerseys http://www.24hours-
online.com/JERSEYS/
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/52e3ce624bc3aecc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:02 pm
From: brandtrade

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NFL jerseys http://www.24hours-online.com/JERSEYS/
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panthers team 17 del homme in black 1 in 48 and 1 in 50
mbl jerseys http://www.24hours-online.com/JERSEYS/
Philadelphia Phillies 10 jenkisn white red bar 1 in 48 and 1 50
tiger detroit 14 jackson white 1 in 48 and 1 50
Cardinals lopez 8 in white 1 in 48 and 1 in 50
NBA ALL adidas swingman jerseys http://www.24hours-online.com/JERSEYS/
NEW YORK KNICKS 3 mcgrady 1 white and 1 in blue all 48

hotsale jerseys,good quality and best price.

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rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

2010-12-03T17:07:00.001-08:00

rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Papp Schmear - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/0e1536812f1f76fc?hl=en
* Katie Compton - The Chuck Norris of Cyclocross - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/386229175359db19?hl=en
* Dickipedia: Lance Armstrong - 10 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/fc631cf1ef4526b7?hl=en
* TD building form - 5 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bcae1ece8a52adb4?hl=en
* Moonlighting as a chef or possibly a clown ??? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/67640a4d98f082de?hl=en
* Nothing says "I collect life size action figurines" as loudly as - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/8669e35b52c602eb?hl=en
* Nothing says "I love chugging cock" louder than a grown man - 2 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/73c99626fe4783f7?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Papp Schmear
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/0e1536812f1f76fc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 9:07 pm
From: Fred

On Dec 2, 9:40 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This Papp thing is turning out to be pretty god damn good. About 5-6
> caught now and another 100 or so to go?

I've only heard of two, who are the others?

Fred

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:49 am
From: Fred Flintstein

On 12/2/2010 10:40 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
> This Papp thing is turning out to be pretty god damn good. About 5-6
> caught now and another 100 or so to go?
>
>

Not likely. Only the ones that are members of a national
governing body. The weekend warrior marathoners are off
scott free.

It isn't just bike racers that do this. Only a small
minority of his customers have to worry about this shit.

Fred Flintstein

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 8:43 am
From: "derFahrer@gmail.com"

On Dec 3, 9:49 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
wrote:
> Not likely. Only the ones that are members of a national
> governing body. The weekend warrior marathoners are off
> scott free.
>
> It isn't just bike racers that do this. Only a small
> minority of his customers have to worry about this shit.

there was a thread on Slowtwitch not too long ago, where some guy -- a
middle-of-the-pack age group triathlete -- was talking about how he
got his doctor to prescribe testosterone because he had "low T" (like
on the tv commercials).

they ripped him pretty good.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Katie Compton - The Chuck Norris of Cyclocross
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/386229175359db19?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:01 am
From: Zenon

By "socks" she means cycling shorts. By "toes" she means cracks.
This girl may be the Chuck Norris of cyclocross, whatever that means.

"I just emptied out my socks and found a tsp of Koksijde sand in them.
Who doesn't like a little beach sand in their toes?" Source:
http://twitter.com/KatieFnCompton/status/10386752183205890

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:21 am
From: Zenon

.
.
http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-armstrong/
.
.

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:27 am
From: Anton Berlin

sweet

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:40 am
From: BLafferty

On 12/3/2010 4:21 AM, Zenon wrote:
> .
> .
> http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-armstrong/
> .
> .
Some minor factual inaccuracies, but very nice.

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 8:28 am
From: --D-y

On Dec 3, 9:40 am, BLafferty <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 4:21 AM, Zenon wrote:> .
> > .
> >http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-armstrong/
> > .
> > .
>
> Some minor factual inaccuracies, but very nice.

Yeah, why let "minor" factual inaccuracies get in the way of a good
smear job when there's a vendetta based on personal dislike in
operation?

I mean, not as bad as Novitsky breaching the Constitution in order to
snare Barry Bonds, but an important step in the "right direction".
--D-y

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:19 am
From: BLafferty

On 12/3/2010 11:28 AM, --D-y wrote:
> On Dec 3, 9:40 am, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 12/3/2010 4:21 AM, Zenon wrote:> .
>>> .
>>> http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-armstrong/
>>> .
>>> .
>>
>> Some minor factual inaccuracies, but very nice.
>
> Yeah, why let "minor" factual inaccuracies get in the way of a good
> smear job when there's a vendetta based on personal dislike in
> operation?

Smear? Good satire, IMO.

>
> I mean, not as bad as Novitsky breaching the Constitution in order to
> snare Barry Bonds, but an important step in the "right direction".

Barry Bonds' case has nothing to do with Lance's case. Maybe there will
be post-indictment motions to suppress. However, the prosecutors and
investigators tend to learn from their "mistakes." Note how quiet
Novitsky has been. It's got to be driving Fabio and his team crazy.

> --D-y

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:04 am
From: Ronko

In article <531f7401-39ed-4196-835d-
de16f16be2af@c13g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
zenon_jaskula@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>.
>.
>http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-
armstrong/
>.
>.
I got a chuckle out of it because it was funny and well written.
Entertainting to read and understand how they could twist facts to fit
their "hatchet-job", ignore any information contrary to their "hit-
piece" agenda and combine humor at the same time.

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:35 am
From: --D-y

On Dec 3, 11:19 am, BLafferty <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 11:28 AM, --D-y wrote:
>
> > On Dec 3, 9:40 am, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> On 12/3/2010 4:21 AM, Zenon wrote:> .
> >>> .
> >>>http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-armstrong/
> >>> .
> >>> .
>
> >> Some minor factual inaccuracies, but very nice.
>
> > Yeah, why let "minor" factual inaccuracies get in the way of a good
> > smear job when there's a vendetta based on personal dislike in
> > operation?
>
> Smear? Good satire, IMO.

I'll admit I only read as far as the "divorced his wife so he could go
bang an Olsen twin" or however they put it.
That's inaccurate and not any way, shape, or form "satire". It's a
personal attack and a smear. I didn't need to read the rest of that
crap, thank you. But I figure you read it what, five or six times,
over and over and over?

It might reveal some jealousy, although I don't find the Olsen twins
attractive, personally <g>.

> > I mean, not as bad as Novitsky breaching the Constitution in order to
> > snare Barry Bonds, but an important step in the "right direction".
>
> Barry Bonds' case has nothing to do with Lance's case. Maybe there will
> be post-indictment motions to suppress. However, the prosecutors and
> investigators tend to learn from their "mistakes." Note how quiet
> Novitsky has been. It's got to be driving Fabio and his team crazy.

The "personal aspect" (a strong hatred) of Novitsky's "relationship"
with Bonds has been well documented. Same deal for Lance.
He's a rabid dog who has been brought to heel and told to keep quiet
about "the book" until when/if they get a conviction. And he's smart
enough to see the sense (and dollars) in that, give him credit there!
--D-y

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 11:58 am
From: BLafferty

On 12/3/2010 1:35 PM, --D-y wrote:
> On Dec 3, 11:19 am, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 12/3/2010 11:28 AM, --D-y wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 3, 9:40 am, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/3/2010 4:21 AM, Zenon wrote:> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> http://otr.blastmagazine.com/2009/02/03/dickipedia-lance-armstrong/
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>
>>>> Some minor factual inaccuracies, but very nice.
>>
>>> Yeah, why let "minor" factual inaccuracies get in the way of a good
>>> smear job when there's a vendetta based on personal dislike in
>>> operation?
>>
>> Smear? Good satire, IMO.
>
> I'll admit I only read as far as the "divorced his wife so he could go
> bang an Olsen twin" or however they put it.
> That's inaccurate and not any way, shape, or form "satire". It's a
> personal attack and a smear. I didn't need to read the rest of that
> crap, thank you. But I figure you read it what, five or six times,
> over and over and over?

I read it once and gave it to my wife who got a good laugh out of it. If
you feel it's a personal attack and smear, by all means complain to the
author(s). Let us know how they respond.

>
> It might reveal some jealousy, although I don't find the Olsen twins
> attractive, personally
Nor do I, but Lance apparently does/did.

<g>.
>
>>> I mean, not as bad as Novitsky breaching the Constitution in order to
>>> snare Barry Bonds, but an important step in the "right direction".
>>
>> Barry Bonds' case has nothing to do with Lance's case. Maybe there will
>> be post-indictment motions to suppress. However, the prosecutors and
>> investigators tend to learn from their "mistakes." Note how quiet
>> Novitsky has been. It's got to be driving Fabio and his team crazy.
>
> The "personal aspect" (a strong hatred) of Novitsky's "relationship"
> with Bonds has been well documented. Same deal for Lance.
> He's a rabid dog who has been brought to heel and told to keep quiet
> about "the book" until when/if they get a conviction. And he's smart
> enough to see the sense (and dollars) in that, give him credit there!
> --D-y

ROTFL! Right. You know what Novitsky is thinking regarding Armstrong.
There are some effective anti-psychotic meds your shrink can prescribe
for you. You won't have to listen to Lance or Novitsky whispering in
your ear.

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:36 pm
From: --D-y

On Dec 3, 1:58 pm, BLafferty <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> > On Dec 3, 11:19 am, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> On 12/3/2010 11:28 AM, --D-y wrote:
>

>
> I read it once and gave it to my wife who got a good laugh out of it.

Birds of a feather.

> If
> you feel it's a personal attack and smear, by all means complain to the
> author(s). Let us know how they respond.

Go jump in the lake.

> Nor do I, but Lance apparently does/did.

Or maybe "hot" doesn't necessarily mean "attractive".

> ROTFL!

I hope you got well clear of the furniture before you started rolling
around on the floor.

> Right. You know what Novitsky is thinking regarding Armstrong.
> There are some effective anti-psychotic meds your shrink can prescribe
> for you. You won't have to listen to Lance or Novitsky whispering in
> your ear.

Why the bullshit personal attack on me... wait a minute, I know why.
Consistency of character and actions.

Novitsky's "book" quote and general attitude toward Barry Bonds were
reported in the media. Lance gets the same deal except Novitsky is on
a leash so he doesn't screw the pooch on this one, too.
--D-y

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:04 pm
From: BLafferty

Very original.
>
>> If
>> you feel it's a personal attack and smear, by all means complain to the
>> author(s). Let us know how they respond.
>
> Go jump in the lake.

No problem.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: TD building form
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bcae1ece8a52adb4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:31 am
From: bar

with a blistering attack

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-four-at-cayman-training-camp/150783

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:29 am
From: Anton Berlin

Hopefully he will get away from those fatties. Maybe they were going
to grab him and EAT HIM

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:29 am
From: "Beloved Fred No. 1"

Anton Berlin wrote:
> Maybe they were going to grab him and EAT HIM

Too many germs.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:27 am
From: Plano Dude

On Dec 3, 8:29 am, "Beloved Fred No. 1" <n...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> Anton Berlin wrote:
> > Maybe they were going to grab him and EAT HIM
>
> Too many germs.

Only if they are Inuit.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:58 am
From: "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."

On Dec 3, 4:31 am, bar <barbari...@gmail.com> wrote:
> with a blistering attack
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-...

Dumbass -

OMG, that just looks stupid.

Masters Fatties, living up to their moniker.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:32 am
From: Anton Berlin

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-four-at-cayman-training-camp/150766

Or just a douchebag with really bad tastes in clothing?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:48 am
From: Fred

On Dec 3, 6:32 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-...
>
> Or just a douchebag with really bad tastes in clothing?

Those pointy sideburns are the JV-equivalent of the mullett. They MAY
have been in style at one time, and no matter how much things change,
by god he's going to wear them till he dies!

Fred

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 8:51 am
From: "derFahrer@gmail.com"

On Dec 3, 8:32 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-...
>
> Or just a douchebag with really bad tastes in clothing?

man-crush on Tom Wolfe?

http://www.observer.com/files/full/wolfe.jpg

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nothing says "I collect life size action figurines" as loudly as
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/8669e35b52c602eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:35 am
From: Anton Berlin

the total and utter gayness of this shirt.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-four-at-cayman-training-camp/150763

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nothing says "I love chugging cock" louder than a grown man
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/73c99626fe4783f7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:38 am
From: Anton Berlin

riding horseyback on another grown mans shoulders.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-days-three-and-four-at-cayman-training-camp/150758

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:29 am
From: Anton Berlin

He needs to know Jesus - this song inspired me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQyXWllz5Ao

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rec.bicycles.tech - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

2010-12-03T13:52:00.000-08:00

rec.bicycles.tech
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech?hl=en

rec.bicycles.tech@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - Medical Costs
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/098895388786dab6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:03 am
From: Duane Hébert

On 12/3/2010 9:46 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Frank Krygowski:
>> Why should a customer have to search online to
>> learn how to get a real live human being on the phone?
>
>
> Bumper sticker: "This is America. Why do I have to press '1' for
> English?"

It's probably better than "Press 1 for whatever language or wait for
english."

Here we get
"Press 8 for English ou pour la francais svp faire l'une"

Then you press 8 and after a while someone answers and says
"Bonjour, puis-je vous aidez?" And then you say hello, est-que
vous parlez l'anglais? And they say "Mais bien sur I am speaking the
english"

You get used to it. The francophones here have bumper stickers
saying "On est a Quebec. Pour quoi faire l'une pour francais?"
(among other things)

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:15 am
From: Clive George

On 03/12/2010 15:03, Duane H�bert wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 9:46 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>> Per Frank Krygowski:
>>> Why should a customer have to search online to
>>> learn how to get a real live human being on the phone?
>>
>>
>> Bumper sticker: "This is America. Why do I have to press '1' for
>> English?"
>
> It's probably better than "Press 1 for whatever language or wait for
> english."
>
> Here we get
> "Press 8 for English ou pour la francais svp faire l'une"
>
> Then you press 8 and after a while someone answers and says
> "Bonjour, puis-je vous aidez?" And then you say hello, est-que
> vous parlez l'anglais? And they say "Mais bien sur I am speaking the
> english"
>
> You get used to it. The francophones here have bumper stickers
> saying "On est a Quebec. Pour quoi faire l'une pour francais?"
> (among other things)

Ever heard of Miles Kington? (or as he is now affectionately referred to
in Private Eye, the late Kilometres Kington)

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:41 am
From: SMS

On 12/3/2010 6:46 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
> Per Frank Krygowski:
>> Why should a customer have to search online to
>> learn how to get a real live human being on the phone?
>
>
> Bumper sticker: "This is America. Why do I have to press '1' for
> English?"

Actually, in many cases you're better off pressing 2 for Spanish because
you'll get a call center in the U.S. staffed by bi-lingual Americans
versus being connected to an English-speaking call center in India. Of
course some companies have opted for bi-lingual support staffs in South
America which doesn't help. I wonder if India is trying to have their
citizens learn Spanish.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:41 am
From: Duane Hébert

On 12/3/2010 10:15 AM, Clive George wrote:
> On 03/12/2010 15:03, Duane H�bert wrote:
>> On 12/3/2010 9:46 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>>> Per Frank Krygowski:
>>>> Why should a customer have to search online to
>>>> learn how to get a real live human being on the phone?
>>>
>>>
>>> Bumper sticker: "This is America. Why do I have to press '1' for
>>> English?"
>>
>> It's probably better than "Press 1 for whatever language or wait for
>> english."
>>
>> Here we get
>> "Press 8 for English ou pour la francais svp faire l'une"
>>
>> Then you press 8 and after a while someone answers and says
>> "Bonjour, puis-je vous aidez?" And then you say hello, est-que
>> vous parlez l'anglais? And they say "Mais bien sur I am speaking the
>> english"
>>
>> You get used to it. The francophones here have bumper stickers
>> saying "On est a Quebec. Pour quoi faire l'une pour francais?"
>> (among other things)
>
> Ever heard of Miles Kington? (or as he is now affectionately referred to
> in Private Eye, the late Kilometres Kington)

Hadn't but a quick search found this quote:
Man is the only creature that seems to have the time and energy to pump
all his sewage out to sea, and then go swimming in it.

Seems like someone to read.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 8:04 am
From: David Scheidt

Tad McClellan <tadmc@seesig.invalid> wrote:
:Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
:> In article <id8cc7$o7u$7@reader1.panix.com>,
:> David Scheidt <dscheidt@panix.com> wrote:

:>> Current versions of tin support UTF-8. I do use UTF-8, but tin
:>> doesn't insert headers to show that unless there is non-ascii text,
: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:>> like this gratuitous ?,

:> Hmm, if you consider curiosity and interest gratuitous then we'll just
:> leave it at that.

:Your skin is too thin here, it would appear.

:It seems clear to me that David was not saying that your post was
:gratuitous, but that he was including a gratuitous "non-ascii text"
:character (perhaps rendered as a space or question mark)
:so that tin would detect it and so that you could then look at
:the post's headers.

That's exactly correct. The gratuitous non-ascci was ☣, utf-8 E2 98
A3, the bio-hazard symbol,
<http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2623/index.htm>, which
explains the snark about it belonging elsethread.

--
sig 48

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:06 am
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 3, 6:50 am, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 12:40 AM, Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > ?"DirtRoadie" <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:f0fb93cf-4650-4bea-a5b0-2b70646bd460@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> >> On Dec 2, 4:37 pm, T m Sherm n _ <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> >> $southslope.net"> wrote:
> >>> On 12/2/2010 11:32 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:> On Dec 2, 9:15 am, Frank
> >>> Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Falsified quote below.
>
> >>> >> {I don't waste much time thinking.}
> >>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>
> >>> > Yes, Frank, we know.
> >>> > DR
>
> >>> ... the best argument yet on considering reforming
> >>> the Internet to make anonymous posting much more difficult.
>
> >> Reforming the INTERNET?
> >> Um, OK, Just you and Frank get to use it, right?
> >> And anyone with disagrees with you two is barred?
> >> So have you had these extreme right wing leanings all your life?
>
> > Ummm... Who wants to regulate and control every aspect of people's
> > lives, behaviors and even speech? Think light bulbs, salt, trans fats,
> > vehicles, street signs (!), internet ("neutrality"), media ("fairness"),
> > etc. etc. etc. Hint: it ain't the right wing.
>
> > Bill "but keep on putting Frank in his place; THAT you got right" S.
>
> No comment on libel (falsifying quotations) and threatening to stalk in
> real life (contacting co-workers about a Usenet discussion) by anonymous
> posters?
>
> The silence by almost everyone is deafening - I guess the silent ones
> approve of such behavior?

That seems likely. I doubt that anyone else is as poorly informed as
you are.
Tom, your ignorance is without bounds.
If you would actually like to try to make a point I will be glad to
address it.
You are a true Krygowskian disciple with the same sort of "Reverse
Polish Logic."
Thus far you have thrown in a few inflammatory words without the
remotest understanding of what they mean.
Start with "libel."
Please articulate your case. You have used the word but have not
actually said anything of substance so far.
And then please address the significance of Krygowski lying and
misquoting others, as he regularly does. You clearly have a double
standard here.

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:48 am
From: Jobst Brandt

Tim McNamara wrote:

>>> Interesting, you are not using UTF-8 which I had assumed you
>>> would, given your comment upthread. Does tin support UTF-8? I've
>>> never used tin. I use MT-NewsWatcher or Emacs/Gnus.

>>> -- Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

>> It could look better like this if you had a good news reader and
>> text editor:

> Oddly, Jobst, yours does not respect the sig separator. I am
> surprised by that.

It complains but I often ignore that because it has no significance to
the posting response.
>> =====================================================================
--
Jobst Brandt

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:12 am
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 3, 7:00 am, Duane Hébert <duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 11:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> >[Another fictional novelette of his usual nonsensical rhetoric]

To which Duane patiently replied in part:

> I don't see that you replied to this other than that I should find
> stats. And then you went on to argue based on your personal experience.
> Isn't this what you bitch about with everyone else?
>
> Are you just trying to antagonize me so that I will lash out
> as other have? Why do you insist on chiming in when I'm replying
> to someone else? Is this your mission?
>
> Here's a suggestion. Why don't you create an imaginary poster that you
> can use to preach at. You can supply the arguments that you want to
> contest and then ridicule them when they disagree with you. Who
> would know the difference?

Very thorough, accurate and nicely stated. The difficulty is that
Frank, being "unencumbered by the thought process"* remains in denial.

You are preaching to the choir, as am I.

*http://www.shamelesscommerce.com/v/vspfiles/photos/LATINT-BL-2.jpg

http://dangerdanger.com/d2ctad.jpg

You do have to wonder how Frank rates having T-shirts.

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:46 am
From: "Rik O'Shea"

Hi,
are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?

Thanks & regards

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:55 am
From: Jobst Brandt

Rik O'Shea wrote:

> Are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?

Unless you pull the wheel to the limit of the slot (and the slots be
parallel) you don't need them, but getting the wheel in line with the
frame centerline may be a problem, dropouts not necessarily being
truly parallel in their axle slots.

Get Vertical dropouts and be done with the fore and aft, unsupported
knurled jam nuts that eat divots in the dropout and break axles.

Jobst Brandt

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:40 pm
From: AMuzi

Rik O'Shea wrote:
> Hi,
> are dropout adjuster screws required for semi-vertical dropouts?

They aren't 'required' in any frame end but many horizontal
and 'semi' designs are drilled for them, a feature many
riders find convenient. The GPM angled ends on 1990s
Bianchis are especially cute with chromed screws.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 9:55 am
From: fiultra5

On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.

How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
of course. -- AJ

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:58 am
From: Clive George

On 03/12/2010 17:55, fiultra5 wrote:
> On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.
>
> How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
> of course.

First snow last year landed, melted to slush, refroze into ice. I was ok
going uphill, with a bit of rear wheel slipping, but as I approached the
final right hand turn the front wheel went away and I went down hard.

Lay in the snow for over an hour waiting for an ambulance to travel ten
miles. Lots of nice people in the town I live in. Watching kids on BMXs
going along that same bit of road with no grief at all :-( Most amusing
bit was getting past the jackknifed lorry - transferred between two
ambulances. Nicest bit was the shot of morphine.

Lessons learned - glassy ice is horrible stuff, especially with
skinnyish slicks. If the back wheel is slipping, take the warning to get
off and walk.

This year it's not done that - the snow hasn't turned to glass, so the
cyclocross tyres do a marvellous job, and aren't too bad on the tarmac
either. But I do keep checking the shiny stuff on the road is damp, not ice.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:03 pm
From: Duane Hébert

Nice to see that you're back at it.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:00 pm
From: fiultra5

On Dec 3, 6:58 pm, Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/12/2010 17:55, fiultra5 wrote:
>
> > On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.
>
> > How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
> > of course.
>
> First snow last year landed, melted to slush, refroze into ice. I was ok
> going uphill, with a bit of rear wheel slipping, but as I approached the
> final right hand turn the front wheel went away and I went down hard.
>
> Lay in the snow for over an hour waiting for an ambulance to travel ten
> miles. Lots of nice people in the town I live in. Watching kids on BMXs
> going along that same bit of road with no grief at all :-( Most amusing
> bit was getting past the jackknifed lorry - transferred between two
> ambulances. Nicest bit was the shot of morphine.
>
> Lessons learned - glassy ice is horrible stuff, especially with
> skinnyish slicks. If the back wheel is slipping, take the warning to get
> off and walk.
>
> This year it's not done that - the snow hasn't turned to glass, so the
> cyclocross tyres do a marvellous job, and aren't too bad on the tarmac
> either. But I do keep checking the shiny stuff on the road is damp, not ice.

Bloody hell. That's a 'there but for the grace of God go I story';
could happen to anyone. I hope you're fully recovered. -- Andre Jute

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:44 pm
From: thirty-six

On Dec 3, 9:00 pm, fiultra5 <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 3, 6:58 pm, Clive George <cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 03/12/2010 17:55, fiultra5 wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 1, 10:31 pm, Clive George<cl...@xxxx-x.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > >> I have some sympathy, having broken a hip last year.
>
> > > How'd that happen, Clive? Any lessons to be learned? Commisserations,
> > > of course.
>
> > First snow last year landed, melted to slush, refroze into ice. I was ok
> > going uphill, with a bit of rear wheel slipping, but as I approached the
> > final right hand turn the front wheel went away and I went down hard.
>
> > Lay in the snow for over an hour waiting for an ambulance to travel ten
> > miles. Lots of nice people in the town I live in. Watching kids on BMXs
> > going along that same bit of road with no grief at all :-( Most amusing
> > bit was getting past the jackknifed lorry - transferred between two
> > ambulances. Nicest bit was the shot of morphine.
>
> > Lessons learned - glassy ice is horrible stuff, especially with
> > skinnyish slicks. If the back wheel is slipping, take the warning to get
> > off and walk.
>
> > This year it's not done that - the snow hasn't turned to glass, so the
> > cyclocross tyres do a marvellous job, and aren't too bad on the tarmac
> > either. But I do keep checking the shiny stuff on the road is damp, not ice.
>
> Bloody hell. That's a 'there but for the grace of God go I story';
> could happen to anyone. I hope you're fully recovered. -- Andre Jute

Not entirely true, the fatter your backside the less likely a
fracture, but you have to weigh that up against your age and
osteopororsis. I came off enough times in my younger days to know
that falls on ice may superficially cause less damage but know from
the bruising that follows that some severe impacts need to be
absorbed, of which today present me too great a risk due to
osteoporosis. So unless you know that your bones are in excellent
health from a DEXA scan, or can presume they are because you are under
35, then be prepared for a fractured hip.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:09 am
From: fiultra5

On Dec 3, 11:27 am, Anton Success <snd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Being a roadie but having bought a 29"er for my wife i've got to ask,
> because
> I see no Ice Spiker Pro in 28xTheFatterTheBetter
> and the 29"er Specialized i've got seems to have received the loveless
> treatment from the company:
> mechanical disk brakes, some junk crank etc:
> Is there some animosity from bike makers towards 29"ers?
>
> Are any mtb pro teams using 29"ers or that is purely an amateur
> movement?

There are some good 29ers out there. I have a 29er with specially
developed Columbus double butted tubes, special lugs, lovely paint,
coachlining, specially developed rims, specially developed spokes,
hydraulic rim brakes, hub gears, hub dynamo, really powerful automatic
lights front and rear, mudguards, rack, superb Cane Creek headset,
super adjustable stem, same bottom bracket as fitted by all the top
Euro bikes, etc. It even came with a toolkit with a specially designed
multitool.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
An alternative is to build up your own 29er on a bare frame. One I
looked into that takes balloons is the Karate Monkey, and Pete
Cresswell described his buildup on another frame a couple of months
ago. -- Andre Jute

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:14 am
From: fiultra5

On Dec 3, 12:41 pm, DougC <dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 6:40 AM, DougC wrote:
>
> > On 12/2/2010 5:12 PM, T m Sherm n _ > wrote:
> >> On 12/2/2010 1:48 PM, fiultra5 aka Andr Jute wrote:
> >>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
> >>> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
> >>> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>
> >> When I tried to search the Google RBT archives yesterday, a lot of the
> >> pages refused to load.
>
> > This sounds similar to my problem--except that I am accessing RBT
> > through Thunderbird/Charter email/newservers....
>
> > Perhaps I was a bit quick to pull the trigger on my own PC?
> > ~
>
> Well wouldn't you know it... now it seems to be working like normal (at
> least, the previous post did) ;D
>
> The previous post sent and completed in ~2 seconds, and showed up on the
> newsgroup....
> ~

My newsreader is still getting no RBT posts from Google because the
server is getting nothing from Google.

In addition Google is now doing something really infuriating,
demanding that I type in a distorted word before I sign in, before
every post I send, etc. The words are so distorted that I, a
typographer (!), have troubel making them out so it can take two or
three tries.

Idiots are everywhere these days, empowered by the internet, magnified
internationally beyond their most malicious dreams.

Andre Jute
Ugh!

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 11:11 am
From: Cam

On Dec 2, 2:48 pm, fiultra5 <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ

I thought you used some other newsreader that had a kill filter and
that only your protégé used Google to post your thoughts for you.

Cam

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:57 pm
From: fiultra5

On Dec 3, 7:11 pm, Cam <cam.b...@beer.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 2:48 pm, fiultra5 <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
> > at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
> > posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>
> I thought you used some other newsreader that had a kill filter and
> that only your protégé used Google to post your thoughts for you.
>
> Cam

You're either too deep or too stupid for me, Cam. No idea what you
mean. Not sure I care. What is it you think you contribute to the
common weal with this sort of comment? -- AJ

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:05 pm
From: DougC

On 12/3/2010 12:14 PM, fiultra5 wrote:
> On Dec 3, 12:41 pm, DougC<dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
>> On 12/3/2010 6:40 AM, DougC wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/2/2010 5:12 PM, T m Sherm n _> wrote:
>>>> On 12/2/2010 1:48 PM, fiultra5 aka Andr Jute wrote:
>>>>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
>>>>> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
>>>>> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>>
>>>> When I tried to search the Google RBT archives yesterday, a lot of the
>>>> pages refused to load.
>>
>>> This sounds similar to my problem--except that I am accessing RBT
>>> through Thunderbird/Charter email/newservers....
>>
>>> Perhaps I was a bit quick to pull the trigger on my own PC?
>>> ~
>>
>> Well wouldn't you know it... now it seems to be working like normal (at
>> least, the previous post did) ;D
>>
>> The previous post sent and completed in ~2 seconds, and showed up on the
>> newsgroup....
>> ~
>
> My newsreader is still getting no RBT posts from Google because the
> server is getting nothing from Google.
>
> In addition Google is now doing something really infuriating,
> demanding that I type in a distorted word before I sign in, before
> every post I send, etc. The words are so distorted that I, a
> typographer (!), have troubel making them out so it can take two or
> three tries.
>
> Idiots are everywhere these days, empowered by the internet, magnified
> internationally beyond their most malicious dreams.
>
> Andre Jute
> Ugh!

Google uses reCAPTCHA, which has a noble purpose (helping to convert
scanned in vintage book texts) but can be somewhat taxing at times. With
many websites' implementations, if the words it gives are too difficult
to read then you can hit F5/refresh to get a different word set.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReCAPTCHA

reCAPTCHA (and other captcha companies as well) must occasionally shift
the distortion types frequently to keep ahead of spammers trying to
write programs to automatically crack the system.
~

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:11 pm
From: Duane Hébert

On 12/3/2010 4:05 PM, DougC wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 12:14 PM, fiultra5 wrote:
>> On Dec 3, 12:41 pm, DougC<dcim...@norcom2000.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/3/2010 6:40 AM, DougC wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/2/2010 5:12 PM, T m Sherm n _> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/2/2010 1:48 PM, fiultra5 aka Andr Jute wrote:
>>>>>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
>>>>>> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
>>>>>> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>>>
>>>>> When I tried to search the Google RBT archives yesterday, a lot of the
>>>>> pages refused to load.
>>>
>>>> This sounds similar to my problem--except that I am accessing RBT
>>>> through Thunderbird/Charter email/newservers....
>>>
>>>> Perhaps I was a bit quick to pull the trigger on my own PC?
>>>> ~
>>>
>>> Well wouldn't you know it... now it seems to be working like normal (at
>>> least, the previous post did) ;D
>>>
>>> The previous post sent and completed in ~2 seconds, and showed up on the
>>> newsgroup....
>>> ~
>>
>> My newsreader is still getting no RBT posts from Google because the
>> server is getting nothing from Google.
>>
>> In addition Google is now doing something really infuriating,
>> demanding that I type in a distorted word before I sign in, before
>> every post I send, etc. The words are so distorted that I, a
>> typographer (!), have troubel making them out so it can take two or
>> three tries.
>>
>> Idiots are everywhere these days, empowered by the internet, magnified
>> internationally beyond their most malicious dreams.
>>
>> Andre Jute
>> Ugh!
>
> Google uses reCAPTCHA, which has a noble purpose (helping to convert
> scanned in vintage book texts) but can be somewhat taxing at times. With
> many websites' implementations, if the words it gives are too difficult
> to read then you can hit F5/refresh to get a different word set.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReCAPTCHA
>
> reCAPTCHA (and other captcha companies as well) must occasionally shift
> the distortion types frequently to keep ahead of spammers trying to
> write programs to automatically crack the system.
> ~

Why not use an NNTP server like news.eternal-september.org
and a newsreader like Thunderbird? Seems quicker than google...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Recommendations
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/8dc20cd44229005f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:15 am
From: Andy

On Dec 1, 5:28 pm, James <james.e.stew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 2, 10:16 am, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 12/1/2010 2:55 PM, Andy wrote:
>
> > > You are the man.
> > > Economical ideas and a good attitude too. :-)
>
> > And don't forget SAE30 bar and chain oil. It has additives to keep it
> > from flinging off the chain. The downside is that it's sticky.
>
> I tried chainsaw chain and bar oil on my bicycle chain once. It was
> the worst thing for messing up the bike. It kinda makes long strings
> of oil, like thick cobwebs between the chain and chainrings as the two
> separate, and flicks all over the place.
>
> Never again.
>
> I've used engine oil, gearbox oil, EP diff oil and ATF. They all work
> reasonably well provided they're allowed to penetrate sufficiently
> (which takes a bit more effort with the heavier grades).
>
> I like ATF for my regular riding. It's light and penetrates well, and
> is easy to wipe and clean off, but it's probably not going to hang
> around in wet conditions. I don't ride in the wet if at all possible.
>
> JS.

It's might be safe if you use a Faraday cage.

Andy

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 10:23 am
From: fiultra5

On Dec 3, 2:57 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote:
> Per Peter Cole:
>
> >I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride.
>
> I'm another one that never carried water.
>
> But somewhere along the line, I discovered that drinking during a
> ride longer than about 1.5 yours made the diff between getting
> home comfortably, and spending the last part of the ride in a
> state of fatigue.
>
> Dunno if that qualifies as dehydration, but I can replicated it
> at will.
> --
> PeteCresswell

Mmm. I've noticed a couple of times that even on a short ride, hour
and a half max, a stop for a drink of water or coffee or tea
invigorates the pedal pals who're lagging so much that they spurt off
again at unsuitable speeds for the hills and the length of the ride. I
always have water on the bike, even riding around town; the bike does
not leave the house without the waterbottle being freshly charged. --
AJ

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 1:50 pm
From: "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"

Inferior brakes? Road bikes safely make it down mountains at 60+ mph
with those supposedly inferior sidepull brakes. No cyclocross bike
requires anything approaching that for braking.

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rec.bicycles.tech - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

2010-12-03T07:07:00.000-08:00

rec.bicycles.tech
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech?hl=en

rec.bicycles.tech@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 11:11 pm
From: Tim McNamara

In article <1npff6pnk4tg30gqinqq6hgaul12htoa9q@4ax.com>,
"(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid> wrote:

> Today, I actually know people who listen to nothing but Glenn Beck
> and/or Rush Limbaugh. And I'll bet there are others that listen to
> nothing but Air America or whatever the functional analog in the
> other direction is.

I think the term you meant to use was "dysfunctional analog." Have you
actually heard Air America? Yeeaaggghhhhh! It's every bit as worthless
as Beck and Limbaugh.

--
Gotta make it somehow on the dreams you still believe.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 12:59 am
From: RobertH

On Dec 1, 10:35 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_°

> Note that club cyclists have one-quarter the collision rate compared to
> college student cyclists: p. 44
> <http://books.google.com/books?id=Qz4kAulpimgC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA42&dq=cyc...>.
>
> I think the differences in behavior of the two groups is obvious.

The relationship between 'behavior' and accident rate is not obvious.
If it were, there wouldn't be any studies showing that Boston
messengers (including rookies) have an accident/injury rate in the
same ballpark as that found for experienced 'club
cyclists.' (Dennerlein, Moritz)

Unfortunately for the self-described vehicular cyclists and their deep-
down need for statistical validation, the relationship is really with
experience/age and level of overall awareness, and not with so-called
behavior.

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:50 am
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">

On 12/3/2010 12:40 AM, Bill Sornson wrote:
> ?"DirtRoadie" <DirtRoadie@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:f0fb93cf-4650-4bea-a5b0-2b70646bd460@r16g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Dec 2, 4:37 pm, T�m Sherm�n� �_� <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
>> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>>> On 12/2/2010 11:32 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:> On Dec 2, 9:15 am, Frank
>>> Krygowski<frkry...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Falsified quote below.
>>>
>>> >> {I don't waste much time thinking.}
>>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> > Yes, Frank, we know.
>>> > DR
>>>
>>> ... the best argument yet on considering reforming
>>> the Internet to make anonymous posting much more difficult.
>>
>> Reforming the INTERNET?
>> Um, OK, Just you and Frank get to use it, right?
>> And anyone with disagrees with you two is barred?
>> So have you had these extreme right wing leanings all your life?
>
> Ummm... Who wants to regulate and control every aspect of people's
> lives, behaviors and even speech? Think light bulbs, salt, trans fats,
> vehicles, street signs (!), internet ("neutrality"), media ("fairness"),
> etc. etc. etc. Hint: it ain't the right wing.
>
> Bill "but keep on putting Frank in his place; THAT you got right" S.

No comment on libel (falsifying quotations) and threatening to stalk in
real life (contacting co-workers about a Usenet discussion) by anonymous
posters?

The silence by almost everyone is deafening - I guess the silent ones
approve of such behavior?

--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:00 am
From: Duane Hébert

On 12/2/2010 11:54 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Dec 2, 9:22 am, Duane H�bert<duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>> I am also not convinced that rear ends and especially side swipes
>> are so rare but if they are couldn't it be partially due to the fact
>> that not many people ride in traffic?
>
> Duane, if you're curious about something like that, you should go
> looking for data. You may be able to find some. As it is, you're
> repeating your usual pattern - the "I just don't believe the data, I
> think it's dangerous" thing, with no effort to learn more.

I prefer to use my 30+ years cycling experience to tell me
what to think about something as simple as where and how
to ride my bike. Anyway, it's not "the data" that I don't
believe, it's "your data" and mostly your interpretation of
it.

I've told you repeatedly that your stats are
not valid because you are cherry picking outliers (fatalities)
and trying to use them to show a sigma relationship of some kind.
Further, you take fatalities caused by cycling, and use as a universe
of discourse the entire population of the US then compare the rate
per cyclist to the U of D. Any sensible statistician would conclude,
at least in part, that increase the test (cyclists) participation
in the U of D would increase the rate.

I've told you that you can't use statistics based only on
fatalities and general population but that you need to know
the number of injuries per cyclist to make any claim as to the
safety of cycling. You told me that it was up to me to find
the statistics. As if I'm the AMA or something.

You've made claims that facilities not only don't reduce injury,
but they can increase injury (links to cyclist killed in bike lanes)
and that they reduce cycling.
Yet I have sent you links and links about the correlation between
increases facilities, increased cycling and decreased injuries
in Montreal. You then send me links telling me that cycling in
here is safer than the US. Why? To convince me that we don't
need facilities. But you ignore the fact that everyone doing any
serious study here concludes that facilities are working. Duh.

Don't lecture me on statistics. I'm not your student.

>> If driving in traffic is
>> apparently so dangerous for cars, and I totally agree that it is...
>
> How dangerous is "so dangerous"? It's apparently not dangerous enough
> to keep 80 year old women from driving to the mall for shopping.

So now you think that driving is acceptably safe?
Do you have stats for that? You know Frank, you can't use vague
feelings to argue against hard statistics. It certainly colors
your opinion of cycling being safe when you think that driving is
as well. How about sky diving?

Besides, the band of elderly ladies are going to take care of you
eventually. Didn't you use the same argument with the elderly Italian
ladies going to the market to show that uselessness of helmets?
What makes you think that elderly people are any less brave than
anyone else? The lady taking her car to the mall probably does
so because it's the most convenient way for her to get to the mall, in
spite of the expense, danger whatever. Isn't convenience the reason
that most people drive instead of using public transportation?

> Personally, I think driving is acceptably safe. I say that, never
> having had an on-road car crash in over 40 years of driving. Ditto
> for motorcycling. (I did have somebody back into my car at about 3
> mph in a parking lot.) If I didn't think it was safe enough, I
> wouldn't do it.

I've been rear ended twice that was serious. Once as a teenager in my
father's car when we were rear ended by an 18 wheeler. He had to have
surgery. I still have problems with my lower back. Car was totaled.
A second time was as a young adult when I was rear ended by a Coca Cola
delivery truck whose brakes failed. My car was totaled. Both of these
happened on roads where I would ride my bike. I can't imagine any
scenario that would have been good had I been on a bike instead of
inside of a steel shell.

I've had several other accidents that were less serious. In the last 3
years, I've had one accident where I was side-swiped, losing my mirror
assembly and slashing my driver side door, by a motorist trying to avoid
an ambulance behind them. And I've been hit from behind, twice hard
enough to dent my bumper. That's in the last 3 years. And again,
all of these are on streets where I would ride my bike.

I don't report the usual taps that no one reports. I don't report going
off the road in black ice at White River Junction on my way from
Montreal to Boston as this has nothing to do with cycling.

So my experience with MV safety is not the same as yours. Though it is
roughly the same for my wife and many of my friends. I do have a friend
like you that has never had an accident. But it's not the norm in the
small sample that I can see.

Though if you take the same tact and use only fatalities when dealing
with auto accidents, then I guess I haven't experienced that yet.

> As with cycling, I believe that paying attention to traffic,
> anticipating possible problems, and operating my vehicle competently
> makes the roads acceptably safe. It's not rocket science.

Defensive driving or cycling is mandatory. Even so, you can't
control what that truck is going to do. Operating your MV acceptably
safe (for some definitions of both acceptably and safe) is mandatory to
reduce your risk. But it doesn't remove the problems caused by others
not doing so, or just accidents. That's why they call them accidents
Frank. It's not rocket science.

You started by replying to somewhere that I said,
"I am also not convinced that rear ends and especially side swipes
are so rare but if they are couldn't it be partially due to the fact
that not many people ride in traffic?"

I don't see that you replied to this other than that I should find
stats. And then you went on to argue based on your personal experience.
Isn't this what you bitch about with everyone else?

Are you just trying to antagonize me so that I will lash out
as other have? Why do you insist on chiming in when I'm replying
to someone else? Is this your mission?

Here's a suggestion. Why don't you create an imaginary poster that you
can use to preach at. You can supply the arguments that you want to
contest and then ridicule them when they disagree with you. Who
would know the difference?

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:06 am
From: Duane Hébert

On 12/2/2010 12:29 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
> On Dec 2, 7:28 am, Duane H�bert<duaneheb...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 12/1/2010 9:34 PM, DirtRoadie wrote:
>
>>> Likely confirmation of a higher rate of injury kinda' leaves Frank
>>> with just the pits from his carefully picked data cherries.
>>
>> Off-road cycle path seems pretty open as well. Could be flat trail
>> through a park or a dirt bike trail down a mountain side.
>
> Agreed. But regardless, it provides NO SUPPORT for and gives NO
> credence to Frank's vapid argument. Frank is guilty of his usual
> smarminess and seeing only what he wants to see, while not even having
> read the link pointed out by James. Note that it was Frank who first
> mentioned the study (a _TWO_ week study of incidents") and proclaimed
> "And those guys in England found no injuries at all!"
>
> Pure unadulterated bullshit by Frank. But as we know by now, Frank
> will simply enter denial mode and charge off onto some other level of
> irrationality.

I keep telling myself that I will just ignore his bullshit. But then
he jumps in to some other conversation that I'm having and starts his
crap again. Eventually I give in and reply. I know that he's just
going to ignore what I say, restate it as something else more extreme
or exactly the opposite and start a whole thread bitching about it.

Yet I keep letting him intimidate me into replying. I consider this
a weakness of my character.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:08 am
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 1:56 AM, Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article<id866v$9ur$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Peter Cole<peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:

>> You are just describing run of the mill systems integration problems.
>> In your case, the resident systems at the facilities you visit (with
>> or without actually visiting, ideally) should allow you access
>> (limited, secure, etc.) to the data you need without printout&
>> rekeying. I've implemented many applications that did nothing more
>> than exchange/merge/update information between various systems, it's
>> a major IT task.
>
> The problem there is that if I am using their computer terminal, I am
> stopping someone from doing some aspect of their job. EMRs that are
> hosted and accessible by Web browser allow me to use my own laptop, if I
> can have internet access in the building and if the EMR offers remote
> access (not all do). If it is an EMR that runs directly on an operating
> system, then the odds are that I cannot access it from my own laptop. I
> have had IT people flat out refuse to allow access to "their" system and
> "their" data even though I am a covered entity under HIPAA. As I think
> I've mentioned earlier, Matrix is the best of the EMRs I've had to
> contend with; it allows remote access over the internet which is very
> helpful.

I understand the problem. My point is that this isn't so much a problem
of computerized systems per se, but more of an implementation/policy
issue. A properly implemented and operated system should be far more
efficient than its manual counterpart. In this Internet day and age it's
indefensible to have what amounts to access problems. Somebody either
doesn't care, or doesn't consider the expense of supporting "external"
users to be their problem.

The difficult thing about IT (as a practitioner) is that you are always
implementing technology for a non-technical client/end-user. People
remain blithely ignorant of the gap between what is and what easily
could be. Part of the ignorance is willful, often driven by the friction
that arises over "job security" and politics driven by turf wars.
Rejiggering the process inevitably involves changing roles and
responsibilities, that kind of organizational change is hard. The
technology is simple by comparison. If all the technology stopped
advancing tomorrow, we'd still be figuring out how to use it decades
from now, but the train keeps rolling.

When enterprise systems first went to PC platform, it was harder to
support external users because of the relatively large size of "client"
programs to the capacities of machines and comm links. After the
Internet, such systems usually provided dual interfaces (dedicated
client and browser-based). Now, many have gone to browser-based only.
The bad part of that is the Internet hasn't evolved much, so the
interfaces remain pretty crude, much cruder than is possible with
today's hardware. It's become a "lowest common denominator" default on
interfaces, which kills productivity. Real state of the art technology
is only commonly implemented in games, and now smart phones. Enterprise
systems have been left in the 90's.

Part of the problem is IT culture. As you point out, often IT depts have
a very conservative view. This has roots in the old mainframe days. It's
hard for people to think outside the box when they are the box. If you
want to sell an enterprise system, it has to be one that doesn't rattle
the org chart or the IT fiefdom. That limits the options.

Another big factor that limits progress in the development of enterprise
systems is low software development productivity. Systems remain
expensive and difficult to develop and install. Like the cobbler's kids,
programmers haven't improved their own productivity -- for many of the
same non-technical reasons. People remain stubbornly people.

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:42 am
From: SMS

On 12/3/2010 6:06 AM, Duane H�bert wrote:

> I keep telling myself that I will just ignore his bullshit. But then
> he jumps in to some other conversation that I'm having and starts his
> crap again. Eventually I give in and reply.

Take a deep breath and resist the urge to reply as you're just feeding
into the problem.

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:44 am
From: Tad McClellan

Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <id8cc7$o7u$7@reader1.panix.com>,
> David Scheidt <dscheidt@panix.com> wrote:

>> Current versions of tin support UTF-8. I do use UTF-8, but tin
>> doesn't insert headers to show that unless there is non-ascii text,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> like this gratuitous ?,

> Hmm, if you consider curiosity and interest gratuitous then we'll just
> leave it at that.

Your skin is too thin here, it would appear.

It seems clear to me that David was not saying that your post was
gratuitous, but that he was including a gratuitous "non-ascii text"
character (perhaps rendered as a space or question mark)
so that tin would detect it and so that you could then look at
the post's headers.

--
Tad McClellan
email: perl -le "print scalar reverse qq/moc.liamg\100cm.j.dat/"
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:46 am
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per Frank Krygowski:
> Why should a customer have to search online to
>learn how to get a real live human being on the phone?

Bumper sticker: "This is America. Why do I have to press '1' for
English?"
--
PeteCresswell

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:55 am
From: Duane Hébert

On 12/3/2010 9:42 AM, SMS wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 6:06 AM, Duane H�bert wrote:
>
>> I keep telling myself that I will just ignore his bullshit. But then
>> he jumps in to some other conversation that I'm having and starts his
>> crap again. Eventually I give in and reply.
>
> Take a deep breath and resist the urge to reply as you're just feeding
> into the problem.

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 7:03 am
From: Duane Hébert

It's probably better than "Press 1 for whatever language or wait for
english."

Here we get
"Press 8 for English ou pour la francais svp faire l'une"

You get used to it. The francophones here have bumper stickers
saying "On est a Quebec. Pour quoi faire l'une pour francais?"
(among other things)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Light & Motion - Stella 300 Light Opinions?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/d81f87f37b951d68?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 2:50 am
From: Bod

> That's all true, but I think the op was looking for something with a
> helmet mount. <http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.30864> is more
> expensive than a Fenix flashlight but they sell a variety of spare parts
> and accessories including two different mounts that will work on
> helmets, and it does have a long run time, plus they sell spare battery
> packs at a reasonable price.
>
> Considering that it comes with a Li-Ion battery pack and charger, it's
> really not a lot more expensive than some of the higher end flashlights,
> since a Fenix 2AA cell flashlight can cost around $50.

Sorry, forgot to mention the handlebar bracket you can buy fits both
of my helmets nicely and even though it looks like a crappy bit of
rubber with Velcro it's very stable as a helmet mount and on the
handle bars.
That DX does look pretty cheap though.
If you want to more than you could ever hope to know about LED
lighting head to the candle power forums website, they have incredibly
in-depth reviews and pretty much everything you could ever want to
know about any aspect of lighting including a bike light forum and
instructions on making your own lights.
Happy hunting,
Matt

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:58 am
From: SMS

On 12/2/2010 3:36 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

> Is it really a 900 lumen light with a battery pack for $79? Am I
> missing something? That's one-quarter the price of the 700 lumen
> Light&Motion and NightRider lights.

You're saying "$79" as if it's cheap, but if you said that a bicycle
light cost $79 to most people, they'd think that this was a very
expensive, top-of-the line light. If you told them that a bicycle light
cost $300 (the Stella 300) they'd think it was horrendously expensive.
If you told them about "The Big Bang" (HID) at $1087 (with the voltage
converter) they probably would not believe you.

Incidentally, you could but together an HID lighting system that rivals
"The Big Bang" for about $175 per bike (in sets of two) but few people
would even spend that much.

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:27 am
From: Anton Success

Being a roadie but having bought a 29"er for my wife i've got to ask,
because
I see no Ice Spiker Pro in 28xTheFatterTheBetter
and the 29"er Specialized i've got seems to have received the loveless
treatment from the company:
mechanical disk brakes, some junk crank etc:
Is there some animosity from bike makers towards 29"ers?

Are any mtb pro teams using 29"ers or that is purely an amateur
movement?

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:30 am
From: Anton Success

Aside from vbrakes is there any difference between cross and road
bikes?

I need to find a reason to get a roadbike after having switched to a
vbrake based flatbarred cross
that takes up to about 700x38 tires. I mean, there've got to be some
advantages to offset the inferior brakes,
limited rubber choices for a mainstream user. What are they?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:25 am
From: landotter

Bottom bracket height, top tube length, and clearances for large tires
are your big differences. Most cross bikes use canti brakes, as they
tend to fall further back from the rim for mud clearance. I happen to
really dig v-brakes, as they're powerful and a cinch to set up right.
Depends on how much glop you plan on riding in.

If you want drop bars, a cross bike is far more practical than a road
bike. Many can serve light touring and commuting duty. You can put
fast slicks on them or knobbies. With a road bike, you're usually
limited to 25mm tires, blech.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:38 am
From: Clive George

On 03/12/2010 11:30, Anton Success wrote:
> Aside from vbrakes is there any difference between cross and road
> bikes?
>
> I need to find a reason to get a roadbike after having switched to a
> vbrake based flatbarred cross
> that takes up to about 700x38 tires. I mean, there've got to be some
> advantages to offset the inferior brakes,
> limited rubber choices for a mainstream user. What are they?

The cross bike has some advantages to make up for the inferior brakes -
what are you after?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: When pulleys wear out
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/00f28f36c4d23f3b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 3:39 am
From: Bill

It can be difficult to find or order new jockey pulleys, especially
Shimano. I'd suggest that you ask your LBS if they have any broken
derailleurs similar to yours that they will either give or sell you
cheaply. Double-check that the jockey wheels will fit before you buy
it.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:35 am
From: Peter Cole

On 12/2/2010 6:24 AM, Anton Success wrote:
> I could not find in archives a discussion on what to do when pulleys
> wear out.
> Replace both G-pulley and T-pulley? Chain also? derailler? the cogs in
> front?
>
> The guy at work runs deore on his mtb but i'd guess what you'd tell me
> would be applicable
> to mu ultegra setup as well. Right?
>
> tnx

I replaced pulleys once, on a MTB, the after-market ones I used (not
Shimano on a Shimano RD) cost almost as much as a replacement RD and
didn't work well or last long. These days I just replace the whole RD,
often with MTB ones as they tend to be cheaper, more rugged and tolerant
of any cassette/chain ring combo's I may use (I also usually use MTB
cassettes on my road bikes).

It shouldn't be necessary to change anything other than the RD.

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:40 am
From: DougC

On 12/2/2010 5:12 PM, T�m Sherm�n� �_� > wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 1:48 PM, fiultra5 aka Andr� Jute wrote:
>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
>> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
>> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>
> When I tried to search the Google RBT archives yesterday, a lot of the
> pages refused to load.
>

This sounds similar to my problem--except that I am accessing RBT
through Thunderbird/Charter email/newservers....

Perhaps I was a bit quick to pull the trigger on my own PC?
~

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:41 am
From: DougC

On 12/3/2010 6:40 AM, DougC wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 5:12 PM, T�m Sherm�n� �_� > wrote:
>> On 12/2/2010 1:48 PM, fiultra5 aka Andr� Jute wrote:
>>> The munchkins at Google just suspended both my accounts for no reason
>>> at all when I tried to access RBT. My newsreader has not received RBT
>>> posts for several days now. There's definitely a problem. -- AJ
>>
>> When I tried to search the Google RBT archives yesterday, a lot of the
>> pages refused to load.
>>
>
> This sounds similar to my problem--except that I am accessing RBT
> through Thunderbird/Charter email/newservers....
>
> Perhaps I was a bit quick to pull the trigger on my own PC?
> ~

Well wouldn't you know it... now it seems to be working like normal (at
least, the previous post did) ;D

The previous post sent and completed in ~2 seconds, and showed up on the
newsgroup....
~

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 4:47 am
From: Peter Cole

On 12/3/2010 12:48 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:42:47 -0500, Peter Cole
> <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't typically carry water bottles at all except on very long rides
>> out in the boonies. I have yet to suffer the dire predictions of
>> dehydration, hot or cold.
>
> I used to think carrying bottles was silly -- after all, if you've
> been riding long enough to get thirsty, it's time for a rest!
>
> When I could ride farther than around the parking lot, drinking while
> I rode started making more sense. It became a fixed habit after a
> dramatic incident:
>
> One day I'd ridden from New Salem to downtown Albany, New York. About
> halfway home, it became apparent that it was a tad early in the spring
> for such a long expedition, and it was only by extreme effort that I
> managed to make it to the next pay phone. This was at a little
> shopping center only five miles from home -- it was embarrassing to
> call for a ride that close, but I just couldn't go on. In fact, I
> couldn't even make the call without resting a while first.
>
> There was an outside faucet, so I filled my water bottles, just to
> have something to do while waiting to get intelligent enough to put a
> quarter into a slot. Then I sat down and stared blankly at the
> adjacent field. After a while I noticed that both water bottles were
> empty -- so I got up, filled them again, and rode home.
>
> I hadn't been exhausted at all. I had been dehydrated.
>

I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride. I've
done a lot of distance cycling (organized brevets) in the heat of a New
England summer, and, by necessity, developed ways of detecting
dehydration. It takes a while to develop, usually much longer than that.
It is generally obvious, since you're thirsty, too. The few times I have
been dehydrated and not thirsty were when I was doing rides in the heat
in the 12-24 hr range and had lost so much salt apparently it screwed up
my sense of thirst.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 5:55 am
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">

On 12/3/2010 6:47 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
> On 12/3/2010 12:48 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:42:47 -0500, Peter Cole
>> <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't typically carry water bottles at all except on very long rides
>>> out in the boonies. I have yet to suffer the dire predictions of
>>> dehydration, hot or cold.
>>
>> I used to think carrying bottles was silly -- after all, if you've
>> been riding long enough to get thirsty, it's time for a rest!
>>
>> When I could ride farther than around the parking lot, drinking while
>> I rode started making more sense. It became a fixed habit after a
>> dramatic incident:
>>
>> One day I'd ridden from New Salem to downtown Albany, New York. About
>> halfway home, it became apparent that it was a tad early in the spring
>> for such a long expedition, and it was only by extreme effort that I
>> managed to make it to the next pay phone. This was at a little
>> shopping center only five miles from home -- it was embarrassing to
>> call for a ride that close, but I just couldn't go on. In fact, I
>> couldn't even make the call without resting a while first.
>>
>> There was an outside faucet, so I filled my water bottles, just to
>> have something to do while waiting to get intelligent enough to put a
>> quarter into a slot. Then I sat down and stared blankly at the
>> adjacent field. After a while I noticed that both water bottles were
>> empty -- so I got up, filled them again, and rode home.
>>
>> I hadn't been exhausted at all. I had been dehydrated.
>>
>
> I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride. I've
> done a lot of distance cycling (organized brevets) in the heat of a New
> England summer, and, by necessity, developed ways of detecting
> dehydration. It takes a while to develop, usually much longer than that.
> It is generally obvious, since you're thirsty, too. The few times I have
> been dehydrated and not thirsty were when I was doing rides in the heat
> in the 12-24 hr range and had lost so much salt apparently it screwed up
> my sense of thirst.

Hyponatremia is miserable: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyponatremia>.

--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:57 am
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per Peter Cole:
>I'd be surprised if you were dehydrated from such a short ride.

I'm another one that never carried water.

But somewhere along the line, I discovered that drinking during a
ride longer than about 1.5 yours made the diff between getting
home comfortably, and spending the last part of the ride in a
state of fatigue.

Dunno if that qualifies as dehydration, but I can replicated it
at will.
--
PeteCresswell

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Stem mounted shifters
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/t/4402f041119abc82?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Dec 3 2010 6:45 am
From: landotter

On Dec 2, 8:42 pm, "Phillip Mcracken" <some...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> Seems like a more practical mounting position than the downtube, but its
> been ghettoized by department store bikes. Is there any sort of bracket or
> mount for stem mounting your shifters or a practical reason other than
> coolguy style not to put them there?

Only reason to not put them there is that the only available models
you can get new are really junky. If you can find some nice old alu
Sun Tour shifters, go for it. An 8 speed cassette is the most I like
to shift friction, but YMMV.

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rec.bicycles.racing - 11 new messages in 7 topics - digest

2010-12-03T00:25:00.001-08:00

rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* HOW I PUBLICLY HUMILIATED and TURNED FBI, CIA, NSA and DNI PSYCHOPATHS into
TRANNIES - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9cb526ccbcf9892d?hl=en
* Proof - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4674d8d09794fc6b?hl=en
* Chuck Fucking Coyle - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/a1e43e1ca2fdedeb?hl=en
* No way I'd get on top of that fucking thing (post not about Liz Hatch) - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/079efbd314337f50?hl=en
* Papp Schmear - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/0e1536812f1f76fc?hl=en
* And it's a wide stance - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/954b7d67737197f6?hl=en
* Eddie B did it - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/19f6071b8a3d02dd?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HOW I PUBLICLY HUMILIATED and TURNED FBI, CIA, NSA and DNI PSYCHOPATHS
into TRANNIES
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9cb526ccbcf9892d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Dec 1 2010 11:15 pm
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">

On 12/2/2010 12:25 AM, AmerGovtPsychopathsExposer wrote:
> 1) Bomb these American Federal Buildings and American INFRASTRUCTURE
> BUILDINGS [...]

As in:
<http://lh3.ggpht.com/_09nsJnq3vhw/Ssb-J8x1NXI/AAAAAAAAAdU/wUxBhxH1wRk/P1010101.JPG>?

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Proof
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4674d8d09794fc6b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 5:14 am
From: "Steve Freides"

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
> On Nov 24, 9:15 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/11/news/michigan-masters-racer-su...
>>
>> Hasn't it been said that EPO won't turn a jackass into a thoroughbred
>> (or something like that)?
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> "You can't polish a turd"
>
> thanks,
>
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

What if he's not polish, though?

-S-

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 2:46 pm
From: DirtRoadie

On Dec 2, 6:14 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
>
> > On Nov 24, 9:15 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/11/news/michigan-masters-racer-su...
>
> >> Hasn't it been said that EPO won't turn a jackass into a thoroughbred
> >> (or something like that)?
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > "You can't polish a turd"
>
> > thanks,
>
> > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>
> What if he's not polish, though?
>
That thought has crossed my mind in light of the resident "Polish
turd" in RBT, some of which ends up crossposted here.
DR

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Chuck Fucking Coyle
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/a1e43e1ca2fdedeb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 3:21 pm
From: Fred Flintstein

On 11/29/2010 7:34 PM, derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
> On Nov 29, 10:53 am, Fred Flintstein
> <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net> wrote:
>> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/11/news/chuck-coyle-blames-doping...
>>
>> Someone needs to advise these retards on the correct way to deal
>> with this stuff. You don't string together a long series of barely
>> plausible events ...
>
> It's not *that* implausible that someone would make an online purchase
> for a teammate. But if that were the case ... there must be a receipt
> with a delivery address. So who received the EPO? Was it sent to
> him, or to another address? If another address ... well, there you
> go. If it was to his address then obviously he knew about it, and was
> involved.

Hahahaha!

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/12/news/sources-drugs-were-shipped-to-coyle%E2%80%99s-home-address_151568

Fred Flintstein

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 6:23 pm
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd

On Dec 2, 4:21 pm, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net>
wrote:
> On 11/29/2010 7:34 PM, derFah...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Nov 29, 10:53 am, Fred Flintstein
> > <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net> wrote:
> >>http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/11/news/chuck-coyle-blames-doping...
>
> >> Someone needs to advise these retards on the correct way to deal
> >> with this stuff. You don't string together a long series of barely
> >> plausible events ...
>
> > It's not *that* implausible that someone would make an online purchase
> > for a teammate. But if that were the case ... there must be a receipt
> > with a delivery address. So who received the EPO? Was it sent to
> > him, or to another address? If another address ... well, there you
> > go. If it was to his address then obviously he knew about it, and was
> > involved.
>
> Hahahaha!
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/12/news/sources-drugs-were-shippe...
>
> Fred Flintstein

First let me say that I don't believe a single word
of Coyle's lame laptop excuses (and I don't know the
guy; he may be a fine gentleman, I don't think that has
anything to do with doping). But also:

: Coyle told VeloNews last week that USADA had threatened him
: with a four-year suspension or lifetime ban, and pressured him
: into accepting a two-year suspension.

: Tygart said athletes have access to pro bono legal representation...

: There are other alternatives to signing a confession. An athlete can
: decline to sign USADA's paperwork, effectively accepting the
: suspension without admitting guilt. Or, if an athlete challenges the
: accusation, USADA would be obligated to present its case to
: a three-person panel, even if the athlete chose not to attend the
: hearing. There is no charge (other than the athlete's legal fees
: if he chooses to hire a lawyer) for the hearing.

I think Tygart's blowing smoke up our asses here. It's
entirely consistent with past USADA behavior for them
to threaten you with a more severe penalty if you contest
a case seriously. Tygart could answer the question
of whether USADA threatened Chuck Fucking Coyle
with a lifetime ban if he didn't sign a confession. I don't
think he will answer that question, if someone (Charles
Pelkey, do you still read rbr?) asks it.

Fredmaster Ben

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:38 pm
From: Anton Berlin

> Hahahaha!
>
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/12/news/sources-drugs-were-shippe...
>
> Fred Flintstein

Maybe now he's ready to name names.... oh yeah here's one... chuck
fucking coyle.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: No way I'd get on top of that fucking thing (post not about Liz Hatch)
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/079efbd314337f50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:36 pm
From: Anton Berlin

http://stevetilford.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/odd-bike.jpg

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:40 pm
From: Anton Berlin

This Papp thing is turning out to be pretty god damn good. About 5-6
caught now and another 100 or so to go?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 9:07 pm
From: Fred

On Dec 2, 9:40 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This Papp thing is turning out to be pretty god damn good. About 5-6
> caught now and another 100 or so to go?

I've only heard of two, who are the others?

Fred

==============================================================================
TOPIC: And it's a wide stance
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/954b7d67737197f6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:40 pm
From: Anton Berlin

On Dec 1, 7:58 am, Fred <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Dec 1, 6:49 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 30, 3:15 pm, Fred <fred.gar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/photos/garmin-cervelo-enjoy-first-day...
>
> > "wide stance" classic irony
>
> Glad someone got it.
>
> Fred

On several levels - very nice.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Eddie B did it
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/19f6071b8a3d02dd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:45 pm
From: Anton Berlin

On Nov 30, 9:00 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
<kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 30, 5:59 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Eddie gold - figure it out yourself jackass. I'm not going from
> > google results but from memory. I raced with these guys - knew them
> > all well. FB "friends" with many of them today.
>
> > It's easy enough to figure out.
>
> > Never moved on to pros?
>
> > Ludwig # 1 in UCI points
>
> > Ekimov -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viatcheslav_Ekimov
>
> Dumbass -
>
> More: Konyshev had a long career, despite being in love with Italian
> clubbing. He even got 2nd at Worlds to LemonD in 1989. Berzin was at
> the top for a brief while before his lack of commitment did him in.
> Ugrumov won 3 consecutive mountain stages in the TdF.
>
> And so on.
>
> There probably would have been more if not for cultural barriers.
>
> thanks,
>
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

Yeah the problem with that generation of eastern europeans is that
they could be bought off and distracted with a Def Leppard cassette, a
pair of Levis and any girl from a trailer park. Even a little success
and those guys were way better off than they ever were behind the
wall.

I recall that every east german had a grayish pallor when the wall
first came down. You could spot them a hundreds of meters away even
if you didn't see where they last parked their Trabant.

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rec.bicycles.misc - 6 new messages in 3 topics - digest

2010-12-03T00:01:00.000-08:00

rec.bicycles.misc
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc?hl=en

rec.bicycles.misc@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Republicans and other bastards are trying to slow you down - 4 messages, 3
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/d39ef785705ca446?hl=en
* Does TM have a brain? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/9dc74b0819431b34?hl=en
* NEW UNLOCKED Apple iPhone 4G 32GB .....................300£uro - 1 messages,
1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/17e68079ab0488c1?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Republicans and other bastards are trying to slow you down
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/d39ef785705ca446?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 4:39 pm
From: Forrest Hodge

On 12/2/2010 6:03 PM, T�m Sherm�n� �_� > wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 4:23 PM, Forrest Hodge wrote:
>> On 12/2/2010 12:39 PM, dgk wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 21:02:45 -0500, Forrest Hodge<fo19@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/30/2010 10:43 AM, dgk wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2010 21:44:33 -0500, Forrest Hodge<fo19@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/29/2010 4:27 PM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your
>>>>>> average
>>>>>> backyard philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>> On Nov 29, 4:01 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/29/2010 11:20 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your
>>>>>>>> average
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> backyard philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 29, 10:17 am, Vince<vpilu...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/29/2010 9:21 AM, His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your
>>>>>>>>>> average
>>>>>>>>>> backyard philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One solution is to get folding bike.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can't get a basket on those
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, I missed this comment which is tied up to the sidewalks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The folding bike not only can take a basket it already comes with
>>>>>>>>> rack! That would be the ONLY bicycle I'd allow on sidewalks. The
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> bastards will get their bicycles impounded. I'd wouldn't worry
>>>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>>>> tickets.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a gem of simplicity and comfort...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.bikesarecool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=397
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let the Republicans die of envy!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My 400 HP sport/muscle car isn't envious of a folding bicycle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, some day I invite to a Triathlon where one of the events is to
>>>>>>> take the vehicle in the subway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No subways where I live, and even there were, I don't care for public
>>>>>> transportation. I prefer not being at the mercy of bus/subway
>>>>>> schedule.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good, and we're spending a trillion dollars to make sure that the oil
>>>>> necessary for shitheads like you remains available.
>>>>
>>>> Shitheads like me? Care to elaborate or is your argument simply limited
>>>> to name calling?
>>>
>>> Essentially you came across as a selfish piece of crap to me. Public
>>> transportation is a more environmentally friendly way to run our
>>> planet but that apparently didn't matter to you.
>>
>>
>> You are correct, I'm not an environmentalist. I understand some people
>> are and they are entitled to their opinions, just as I am entitled to
>> mine. If you choose to ride a bike and or partake in public transit,
>> that's fine. I prefer the convenience and freedom the automobile offers.
>> For reasons I've already explained, in many areas, the bicycle is simply
>> not practical as the primary mode of transportation, nor are there any
>> public transportation options either. Hence the car the logical choice.
>
> If your actions harm others, they are more than just "opinions".
>
How is my driving of a car harming others exactly?

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 6:23 pm
From: Forrest Hodge

On 12/2/2010 12:41 PM, dgk wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:53:22 -0500, Forrest Hodge<fo19@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/1/2010 7:28 AM, Opus wrote:
>>> On Nov 30, 8:02 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> snip<
>>>>>>>> My 400 HP sport/muscle car isn't envious of a folding bicycle.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, some day I invite to a Triathlon where one of the events is to
>>>>>>> take the vehicle in the subway.
>>>>
>>>>>> No subways where I live, and even there were, I don't care for public
>>>>>> transportation. I prefer not being at the mercy of bus/subway schedule.
>>>>
>>>>> Good, and we're spending a trillion dollars to make sure that the oil
>>>>> necessary for shitheads like you remains available.
>>>>
>>>> Shitheads like me? Care to elaborate or is your argument simply limited
>>>> to name calling?
>>>
>>> People that drive vehicles with a decimal order of magnitude more
>>> power than they need to move their butts with fossil fuels, because
>>> they haven't learned to use public transportation and refuse to ride a
>>> bicycle to move their butts using their butts. Is that elaborate
>>> enough for you?
>>>
>>> And just to be precise, the war in Iraq cost a billion dollars a DAY
>>> for 6 years, do the math. That doesn't even begin to tackle the cost
>>> of the war in Afghanistan, and both of those wars were "off-budget"
>>> items during the Bush administration, roughly $3 trillion added to the
>>> deficit that wasn't even counted until 2008.
>>
>>
>> Because public transportation is everywhere, right. Where I live there
>> are no buses, no subways, no bike lanes. It would suicidal and
>> inefficient time-wise to bike to work. So consequently I drive
>> everywhere, and I might as well enjoy myself when I do it. If you really
>> want to get into semantics, it could be considered decedent and
>> unnecessary to ride a bike with 20 in or larger wheels or more than one
>> gear, because everyone should be able to peddle a fixed gear bike up a
>> steep hill and if you can't you're a "shithead".
>
> Yes, there are places where public transit sucks, very true. But that
> isn't the way you phrased it. If available, you would not use it
> because it can never be as convenient as leaving just when you want
> to.

Correct. I would chose not to use it even if were available due to the
convenience factor, the fact that isn't available where I live just
makes the decision that much easier. Compared to rest of the western
world public transportation in the U.S. is a joke. If it were as
widespread and efficient as it is in Japan for example, then I might
have a different opinion.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 6:53 pm
From: "His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"

On Dec 2, 9:23 pm, Forrest Hodge <f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/2/2010 12:41 PM, dgk wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, 01 Dec 2010 16:53:22 -0500, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> On 12/1/2010 7:28 AM, Opus wrote:
> >>> On Nov 30, 8:02 pm, Forrest Hodge<f...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> snip<
> >>>>>>>> My 400 HP sport/muscle car isn't envious of a folding bicycle.
>
> >>>>>>> Well, some day I invite to a Triathlon where one of the events is to
> >>>>>>> take the vehicle in the subway.
>
> >>>>>> No subways where I live, and even there were, I don't care for public
> >>>>>> transportation. I prefer not being at the mercy of bus/subway schedule.
>
> >>>>> Good, and we're spending a trillion dollars to make sure that the oil
> >>>>> necessary for shitheads like you remains available.
>
> >>>> Shitheads like me? Care to elaborate or is your argument simply limited
> >>>> to name calling?
>
> >>> People that drive vehicles with a decimal order of magnitude more
> >>> power than they need to move their butts with fossil fuels, because
> >>> they haven't learned to use public transportation and refuse to ride a
> >>> bicycle to move their butts using their butts. Is that elaborate
> >>> enough for you?
>
> >>> And just to be precise, the war in Iraq cost a billion dollars a DAY
> >>> for 6 years, do the math. That doesn't even begin to tackle the cost
> >>> of the war in Afghanistan, and both of those wars were "off-budget"
> >>> items during the Bush administration, roughly $3 trillion added to the
> >>> deficit that wasn't even counted until 2008.
>
> >> Because public transportation is everywhere, right. Where I live there
> >> are no buses, no subways, no bike lanes. It would suicidal and
> >> inefficient time-wise to bike to work. So consequently I drive
> >> everywhere, and I might as well enjoy myself when I do it. If you really
> >> want to get into semantics, it could be considered decedent and
> >> unnecessary to ride a bike with 20 in or larger wheels or more than one
> >> gear, because everyone should be able to peddle a fixed gear bike up a
> >> steep hill and if you can't you're a "shithead".
>
> > Yes, there are places where public transit sucks, very true. But that
> > isn't the way you phrased it. If available, you would not use it
> > because it can never be as convenient as leaving just when you want
> > to.
>
> Correct. I would chose not to use it even if were available due to the
> convenience factor, the fact that isn't available where I live just
> makes the decision that much easier. Compared to rest of the western
> world public transportation in the U.S. is a joke. If it were as
> widespread and efficient as it is in Japan for example, then I might
> have a different opinion.

I get it. The problem is the lack of choices in America. I agree.

It may get solved in the next 100 years though. Maybe we end the world
before.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 9:57 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

"Forrest Hodge" <fo19@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:id9e82$9md$2@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 12/2/2010 6:03 PM, T�m Sherm�n� �_� > wrote:
[...]

Forrest Hodge wrote:

>>> You are correct, I'm not an environmentalist. I understand some people
>>> are and they are entitled to their opinions, just as I am entitled to
>>> mine. If you choose to ride a bike and or partake in public transit,
>>> that's fine. I prefer the convenience and freedom the automobile offers.
>>> For reasons I've already explained, in many areas, the bicycle is simply
>>> not practical as the primary mode of transportation, nor are there any
>>> public transportation options either. Hence the car the logical choice.
>>
>> If your actions harm others, they are more than just "opinions".
>>
> How is my driving of a car harming others exactly?

Forrest, when you talk to TM, you are talking to the village simpleton. If
you continue to do it, you will discover that salient fact. He has shit for
brains and has hardly ever said anything that makes any sense. In short, he
is a blithering idiot.

Tom Sherman is a man of few words these days. He mainly likes to poke at
people. He is an elitist and thinks folks like you and me are stupid.

I hate motor vehicles myself, but that is where we are at as a society for
the moment. The future will be far different if things keep going the way
they are going. The US is well on its way to becoming a lot like Europe.
When we become as crowded and have a public transit system like they have,
who wouldn't use it to the fullest. The private motor vehicle will go the
way of the Dodo Bird and it will be good riddance. However, at present what
choice do we have.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Does TM have a brain?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/t/9dc74b0819431b34?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 9:16 pm
From: "Edward Dolan"

"His Highness the TibetanMonkey, not your average backyard philosopher"
<comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c65d244d-3095-441c-9a67-b2969b3bc44b@t35g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 2, 3:04 pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo...@iw.net> wrote:
> "His Highness the TibetanMonkey
> [...]
>
> Better to be a funny old man than to have shit for brains.

>> How about an evil old man who wants to nuke everybody?

As long as you get nuked!

Fucking Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Dec 2 2010 8:28 pm
From: CNN213

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--
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